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Thread: Jeff Chang: “Why has nothing replaced hip hop?”

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by stelfox
    anyway, this should really be on another thread shouldn't it, or we'll ruin this one, too
    Unfortunately that thread's been hijacked as well!

    Point taken though.

    Sorry people.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattb
    its not that he offends per se- i'm sure i do to, but its all buick 6 does and he manages to do without SAYING anything. its like working with an over excited 16 year old who suffers a bizarre case of the tourettes.
    I getcha Matt - I think thats his main talent - offending people whilst offering no insight of his own whatsoever.

  2. #32
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    isn't it also to with with hip-hop being a 'culture' as well as a music- it allows all sorts of influences/styles to be sucked in, whilst at the same time locking practitioners into the genre.
    Last edited by matt b; 28-03-2006 at 03:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan Sama
    I believe that is why Hip Hop came into ascendance. While Soul and Hip Hop actually share many similarities in terms of ethos, it seems to me that Soul reached a point where the methods of integrating other sounds and experimenting with new ideas were not sufficient and the music stagnated.
    hmmm
    to be honest, you could parallel funk and soul in the 80s to hip hop in the last ten years or so... soul/funk went digital and electronic in the 80s similar to how hip hop's been much less about gritty soul and funk samples and more about cold electronic sounds since timbaland/neptunes et al came about. i dont think soul reached a point of stagnation because it stopped integrating other sounds (there are other reasons hip hop essentially took its place as the most popular music of black america) - anything but really, it mutated into disco which was quite a different animal that a lot of funk and soul artists loathed with a passion, then in the 80s it integrated the brand new tech of the day - drum machines and synths.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by spotrusha
    i don't know if it necessarily "replaced" hip-hop, but what about house/techno? this was for the most part created by black youths.
    yes, but house/techno were heavily reliant upon "white" influences from day one

    and were then very quickly "co-opted" by whites

    so i agree, in large part, with the POLITICAL explanation, i.e., that the vitality of hip hop has everything to do with black americans having successfully kept it their own

    which raises several other questions . . . .

    (1) why have white americans failed, or in the main not attempted, to appropriate hip hop???

    eminem gets serious props from black people, but he's like the only one

    and i guess some blacks would rate beastie boys

    (2) why is there significant white participation in hip hop production, but rarely in mc'ing?


    ------------------------------------

    ALSO, and is this is to repeat a point made by Reynolds many times over, black artists from the inner city are HUNGRY for success and fame -- and this hunger is the motor of sonic innovation in hip hop

    but again, this raises questions like

    (1) are white musicians in the rock'n'roll medium less hungry for fame? -- i.e., we all know about the small-scale ambition of indie artists, but is this true across the board for rock musicians, i.e., distrust of fame and success???

    (2) or does it have to do with audience expectations? -- i.e., maybe white rock'n'roll audience PREFERS sounds that are not obviously commercial -- and yet this disdain for the mainstream results in a conservative "indie" aesthetic, which has nonetheless been mainstreamed -- whereas black audiences, by contrast, have no such disdain for the commercial or mainstream b/c they already are and always have been at the social margins -- and so black audience by and large looks for fresh sounds that have open designs on market share

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominic

    (2) why is there significant white participation in hip hop production, but rarely in mc'ing?

    Because what is accepted as the genuine 'face' of hiphop is black, whearas the invisible hands are colourless? To people, especially not those into hiphop, the rapper is the super-visible focus of attention and the DJ much less important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt b
    isn't it also to with with hip-hop being a 'culture' as well as a music- it allows all sorts of influences/styles to be sucked in, whilst at the same time locking practitioners into the genre.
    I guess that's partly true, but the culture of hip hop has changed almost as much as the music has. It used to be all about the aprty and now it's about a million different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by dominic
    (1) why have white americans failed, or in the main not attempted, to appropriate hip hop???

    eminem gets serious props from black people, but he's like the only one

    and i guess some blacks would rate beastie boys

    (2) why is there significant white participation in hip hop production, but rarely in mc'ing?
    It's all about cred init? White people are hidden in hip hop because it will destroy the image, despite the fact that the vast majority of hip hop fans/consumers are as white as me. Interestingly this spills over in other areas too. In NZ all the successful MCs are maori/pacific islander and in grime the vast majority of MCs are black, even if a huge number of the producers/djs are white.

    (note that this sounds a little like I'm complaining about it. I could czre less about white people being seen in hip hop myself)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melchior
    despite the fact that the vast majority of hip hop fans/consumers are as white as me
    yeah, but the serious heads are in the main black, the hardcore crews

    that's why it's still black-owned, so to speak

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid
    I think youve misunderstood the subtleties of Buick's approach. He's not actually anti-semetic, hes simply adopting an ironic anti-semetic/racist pose to parody the suffocatingly anti-semetic/racist atmosphere thats prevelant here.
    Thanks Droid, your my mate and comrade now!

    But part of my shtick as an anarchist is to challenge ANY (organised) power structures. Hiphop is now intrinsically part of the modern-Capatalist machine and part of the same production-line mediocrity.

    One of the most compellingly disgusting TV shows I've seen, besides anything Bangcock Hilton is in, is MTV's 'Cribs' show, where these one-hit-wonder rappers and other wankers (including Robbie 'Still trying to make it in USA' Williams) shows off their plush mansions. The funny thing is will they still own those places in 5 years when the next star comes along, or will they become Black Panthers shouting about how the man ripped them off?
    Last edited by Buick6; 29-03-2006 at 12:06 AM.
    All I do now is dick around Sparks, 2006

    Stuff to read on the toilet :linky

  9. #39
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    Guys

    there are tons of white rappers. Many of whom are successful regionally. And I don't mean just the media-darling indie dudes - Paul Walls, Lil Wytes, Bubba Sparxx, Haystacks, Eminems, EC Illas, Tow Downs (heh well maybe not) etc.
    fuck the tango, do the fandango

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidD
    Total eyeroll at caroica funk 'replacing' rap music. It is rap music, in the sense that it holds the same/similar cultural-musical space for Brazillians that rap does here.
    Errr no! funk carioca is deeply unpopular in brazil, except for a small minority, of (usually male)
    favela dwellers.

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    I take issue with the often repeated claim that HipHop changes much, mutates and so on, heard on this thread, too.

    on the contrary, hip hop has been rather static, as befits a popular genre, which needs recognition of a familiar musical ideom to function as a community soundtrack.

    i propose to distinguish the following two dimensions in HipHop:

    • vocal style. here we have two paradigms: rhythmic and melodic. hiphop was born and bread rhythmic. by this i mean that rappers didnt do much with pitch. typical examples are "superrappin" by what later became know as "Grandmaster flash & the furious 5" (1978) and "rapper's delight" by the "Sugarhill gang". the rhythmic paradigm also features little variation in the rapped rhythm. almost all foreign rapping still follows this pattern, as does grime (which is why i don't like most grime vocals). the rhythmic paradigm has two subparadigms: smooth and shouty, with the former being the norm and the latter the exception. this paradigm ruled supreme, but was eventually challenged. maybe the early snoop/dr dre stuff may have been among the first to introduce more melody into the rapping and also a bit more rhythmic variety. in the late 90s and realy 00s this became much more dominant through crunk/dirty south and the fusions with RnB (traditionally more melody oriented). recently vocal style has also been shifted a bit due to jamaican and latin influences.


    • background rhythm and harmonisation. HipHop comes from Disco/Funk mostly, and this is still the dominant mode of HipHop's instrumentation. But there was an alternative more noisy mode, for example when the rock crossover was attempted, or Public Enemy. Sounds have changed, partly due to legal issues (changes in the sampling legislation) and also due to progressing music technology.

    One could also talk about lyrical conservativsm, but i'll stop here.

  12. #42
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    Default i might be repeating myself here but anyway...

    Quote Originally Posted by dominic
    ALSO, and is this is to repeat a point made by Reynolds many times over, black artists from the inner city are HUNGRY for success and fame -- and this hunger is the motor of sonic innovation in hip hop
    depends what sort of success youre talking about. hip hop wasnt exactly regular mainstream pop fare in the late 80s (occasional run dmc hits and pop-rappers like young mc, vanilla ice, mc hammer excepted). the idea of any hip hop groups winning an oscar with a song like its hard out here for a pimp was unheard of, even a few years ago. yes, PE, eric b and rakim et al might have been hungry for success, but they didnt expect to see themselves in the billboard top ten or get playlisted on commercial mainstream radio.
    as for fame, apart from a few big names like dr dre/nwa and PE, most rappers' fame was relatively underground. it wasnt made (i mean literally, it wasnt produced and mixed and performed etc) like pop music.

    Quote Originally Posted by dominic
    but again, this raises questions like

    (1) are white musicians in the rock'n'roll medium less hungry for fame? -- i.e., we all know about the small-scale ambition of indie artists, but is this true across the board for rock musicians, i.e., distrust of fame and success???
    you must have missed all the years of rappers going on and on about not selling out, dissing anyone who did and admonishing anyone who even contemplated the notion of selling out or pandering to the demands of regular radio programmers. rappers have always wanted to be succesful of course, they conveniently dissed radio when they werent being accepted but now they have been accepted by mainstream outlets, that anger has vanished, but i cant imagine rock bands not being hungry for success. theyre just more low key and not so brazen about it. they dont talk about it as openly as its deemed 'not cool'.

    Quote Originally Posted by dominic
    (2) or does it have to do with audience expectations? -- i.e., maybe white rock'n'roll audience PREFERS sounds that are not obviously commercial -- and yet this disdain for the mainstream results in a conservative "indie" aesthetic, which has nonetheless been mainstreamed -- whereas black audiences, by contrast, have no such disdain for the commercial or mainstream b/c they already are and always have been at the social margins -- and so black audience by and large looks for fresh sounds that have open designs on market share
    but by and large, hip hop wasnt sounding 'commercial' before 96 or so. even early def jam releases didnt sound like what was on the pop charts at the time. as for not having disdain for the mainstream, what about the traditionally reactionary inclinations of the black audience, eg - when roots reggae was embraced internationally and adopted by the white audience, the core JA audience effectively left it behind for rawer dancehall. when blues was adopted by white rock fans, the black american bulk of its listeners went somewhere else (ditto for early rock n roll). i mean, dyou think the black eyed peas are hugely popular with black listeners? its true that old styles are quickly left behind in favour of something new before they get remotely stale but i dont know if its that gone hand in hand with a total ambiguity towards commercialism. as jeff chang said (or implied), i think its weird that nothing new has sprung up cos hip hops been relatively stale for a while....

  13. #43
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    @ stelfox - the second wave of hip hop (electro funk) arguably came from stockhausen / kraftwerk.

    you can say that techno existed independently of hip hop before they converged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidD
    Guys

    there are tons of white rappers. Many of whom are successful regionally. And I don't mean just the media-darling indie dudes - Paul Walls, Lil Wytes, Bubba Sparxx, Haystacks, Eminems, EC Illas, Tow Downs (heh well maybe not) etc.
    glad you're here, mate. saved me having to point that out.

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    the only people i can really think of are the anticon crew, the rappers on def jux and a few other little indie label-rosters, who arent selling huge numbers but do really well on the underground

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