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Thread: Jeff Chang: “Why has nothing replaced hip hop?”

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael
    I always feel a bit weird stepping into what looks like a two-person chat, but I guess it's a public board, eh. I think Stelfox did make it really clear why he thought you were wrong here. It's really common to tack on part of another track at the end of a music video as a bit of a teaser. In all other cases I've seen it acts as a promotional tool, not some kind of pacifier. Critical thinking's all good, but isn't it standard practice to assume the norm until there's evidence to the contrary?
    true enough, i know everyone from missy to ruff sqwad does the 'two videos in one' thing and thats what juvenile was doing here. BUT i still thought it a little dissapointing/jarring that after something like get your hustle on - which as i said IS a moving video, and something like that means more coming from someone who you wouldnt expect it from like juvenille than it would if say, the roots made it - he put 'whats happenin' right after it.
    but like i said earlier, maybe that makes it cleverer as where he 'challenges the norm' with the first video, he gives people what they might expect with the second one. ive read some articles where they say thats a cynical/apologist/incogruous move on juvenilles part, and maybe it is. or maybe he just didnt give a shit what the second song was.

    i havent read stelfox's blogs, no, but ill check them out.
    Last edited by gumdrops; 03-04-2006 at 09:24 AM.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumdrops
    such anger, stelfox, such anger. i see you wont/cant really argue your point or counter any of my comments except to say im a hater blah blah blah or im 'wrong' without actually saying why. thats absolutely fine, but it does seem like an easy option to just dismiss everything ive posted here as simply 'hating', as if it couldnt possibly be anything more than just bitter cynicism/jealousy. i dont think i am a hater though (although of course, im bound to say that), im just not one for this 'if you criticise hip hop, you must not like it and therefore you shouldnt say anything about it or ever listen to it again' way of thinking. it seems almost facist. and weirdly for a music thats so dominant and global, over protective.

    anyway, enough of this, i think this thread deserves to have more replies to do with the actual question being posed.
    that's hardly what i'm saying. you are categorically wrong about the juve video. you made the addition of another song at the end sound like a cynical ploy to add some kind of vulgarity to the program because a hip-hop audience cannot and will not digest anything but the very basest concepts and imagery (which actually smacks of at worst, racism/at best, rank snobbery to me, but i'll let that be seeing as how i don't know much about you).

    this is not the case and this aspect of the video cannot be used to back that idea up in any way whatsoever, seeing as how dual videos are entirely standard. it's absolute nonsense and, worse still, i think you know it. as for the song itself, mpc has said it all, so i don't need to bother now.

    i'm happy to engage in an argument with you, but not when you're reaching so damned hard to prove your "points". i do most of my posting at work and have a bit of a personal life, so i can't engage with every post you make as and when you make it. however, if you're going to throw up these incessant examples of hip-hop's irrelevance and moral decrepitude, please at least make them hold a little water, otherwise this is like some sam kinison shit, just a lot less funny.

    (also, i don't blog any more. i make a point of stopping any blog i do as soon as it gets mentioned in the guardian. being serious, i actually don't have a lot of time for it, though i do update the cuttings blog occasionally, when there's anything worthwhile to put there.)
    Last edited by stelfox; 03-04-2006 at 05:45 PM.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by confucius
    sigh... ok I'll re-phrase:

    what makes religious fundamentalism and backwards, intolerant, hateful, politically unaware, selfish, vain, and just plain ignorant attitudes so inducive to the making of wicked beats and party rockin' music?
    In regards to hiphop... its partly ghetto fabulousness. Being from the streets and being a king or queen... living large and having larger than life beats (I was serious with my previous comment). Rising from nothing to become glam, coupled with (working class) prejudices, and the combatitive mentality of "the battle" that pervades the genre... always asserting the self over someone else? Hip hop has that "me against the world" siege mentality in spades, which is a kind of means to the end mentality. What matters is making it, not how you get there... which isn't that different to the US administration?

    I've also wondered if the hyper testosterone in hiphop is partly a reaction to the pc liberalism of the past decades. Reactionary toward the obvious target... i.e. "women are the niggers of the world".

    Tangent: in another forum there was a discussion on something... I can't remember what, but some guy said "its funny how you euros get so upset about racism. here in the US we love the shit." which I thought was an interesting observation.

    Also the tradition of getting stoopid or making something to bug out to... which I guess in part comes from the kind of musicality that arises using turntables and sampling the most hooky parts of old records. Creating something thats simultaneously sonically wacky and dope/funky enough to make people go nuts on the dancefloor.

    I came to the conclusion a years ago that if Dre and Snoop weren't so misogynistic and into pimp/gangsta personas their music would never have the same swagger and groove. Bless them both Planning to go see Snoop and the Snoopadelics when they play here soon.

    Its a big iceberg this one...

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleep
    I've also wondered if the hyper testosterone in hiphop is partly a reaction to the pc liberalism of the past decades. Reactionary toward the obvious target... i.e. "women are the niggers of the world".
    since way before PC liberalism (did that occur outside small private liberal arts colleges which btw are not bastions of hyper-testosterone hiphop), women's bodies have always been a kind of symbolic territory for men to express their power, nationalism etc by trying to control/assert power over. For some reason, maybe to do with the babymaking potential for literally making/embodying a nation.

    But also when people are devalued in society, usually at least one part of fighting back or asserting power is turning against someone lower on the totem pole. So part of how one demonstrates power is by showing who one can dominate. And of course it feeds neatly into the capitalist world (which also has gendered participation where sex sells is mostly women's sex sells) and gets rewarded. And then the broader hiphop market of consumers hype/lap it up (and it feeds their gendered fantasies about power, as well as other fantasies about women as sexual objects).

    It is an expression of genuine power - the power over someone weaker in the system than you. But expressing power is something hiphop folks (and many folks) are usually striving for. Too bad its so hard to do it without getting sucked into that.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripley
    So part of how one demonstrates power is by showing who one can dominate.
    Yeah thats kinda what i meant with the Yoko Ono quote.

    "Love a woman when she got a tight outfit...
    Outfit meaning outlook and disposition." - Q-tip.

    Always makes me smile.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt b
    L.O.N.S. for example
    what is L.O.N.S.?

  7. #97
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    leaders of the new school, busta rhymes' first group...

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by borderpolice View Post
    I take issue with the often repeated claim that HipHop changes much, mutates and so on, heard on this thread, too.

    on the contrary, hip hop has been rather static, as befits a popular genre, which needs recognition of a familiar musical ideom to function as a community soundtrack.

    i propose to distinguish the following two dimensions in HipHop:

    • vocal style. here we have two paradigms: rhythmic and melodic. hiphop was born and bread rhythmic. by this i mean that rappers didnt do much with pitch. typical examples are "superrappin" by what later became know as "Grandmaster flash & the furious 5" (1978) and "rapper's delight" by the "Sugarhill gang". the rhythmic paradigm also features little variation in the rapped rhythm. almost all foreign rapping still follows this pattern, as does grime (which is why i don't like most grime vocals). the rhythmic paradigm has two subparadigms: smooth and shouty, with the former being the norm and the latter the exception. this paradigm ruled supreme, but was eventually challenged. maybe the early snoop/dr dre stuff may have been among the first to introduce more melody into the rapping and also a bit more rhythmic variety. in the late 90s and realy 00s this became much more dominant through crunk/dirty south and the fusions with RnB (traditionally more melody oriented). recently vocal style has also been shifted a bit due to jamaican and latin influences.


    • background rhythm and harmonisation. HipHop comes from Disco/Funk mostly, and this is still the dominant mode of HipHop's instrumentation. But there was an alternative more noisy mode, for example when the rock crossover was attempted, or Public Enemy. Sounds have changed, partly due to legal issues (changes in the sampling legislation) and also due to progressing music technology.

    One could also talk about lyrical conservativsm, but i'll stop here.
    There was a time when this guy and Logan Sama were using dissensus together.

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