Jeff Chang: “Why has nothing replaced hip hop?”

Because when you create a music based around sampling other music, you need never change the name, as you have no real definition of the sonics other than a looped beat and someone rapping on it anyway.

All other genres that came before it were based on original instrumentation and composition and as such were far more clearly definable.

If people get bored of one sound in Hip Hop they can go sample something else.

butchering of the english language

are you talking about hip-hop or buick 6, matt? if it's the former you and i are going to have words!

stelfox said:

butchering of the english language

are you talking about hip-hop or buick 6, matt? if it's the former you and i are going to have words!

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ha! the hip hop i like has some of the greatest use of the english language. its mr 6 i can't stand.

matt b said:

ha! the hip hop i like has some of the greatest use of the english language.

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L.O.N.S. for example

gumdrops said:

i dunno if its the same cos those musics still built on rock. hip hop was a break from disco, funk and soul that preceded it in the 70s. eg - there wasnt rapping in those genres, and they werent based around anyone laying vocals on top of old records either.

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take your point - interesting that black music created forms that anticipated future technology -scratching imitating what samplers would do in the near future - whereas rock has been content to use new technology to produce hyperreal versions of the same old thing - in a way that might be the change that punk/ noo wave initiated; up to then, rock had embraced technology in a relatively open way, whereas from the late seventies onwards, an ever less resonant and affectless adherence to the same old classic formulae became the norm, with technology used simply to 'perfect' the old routine

matt b said:

otm- not to mention his continual butchering of the english language...

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Ive got as much reason as anyone to want to see the back him - but I dont think hes being genuinely anti-semetic (oh the irony!), and I dont think mangling your words should be a bannable offense.

The way I see it, a ban should be the final option reserved for serious breaches of etiquette such as personal abuse etc.

That said, it might be constructive for the mods to step in a bit more often and give a bit of (or any!) guidance. Theres been a lot of recent threads around here that have been ruined by trolling... someone has to draw a line at some point or else the anti-social behaviour of the few is left unchecked, resulting in people feeling they have license to say whatever the fuck they want without consequences...

anyway, this should really be on another thread shouldn't it, or we'll ruin this one, too

Logan Sama said:

Because when you create a music based around sampling other music, you need never change the name, as you have no real definition of the sonics other than a looped beat and someone rapping on it anyway.

All other genres that came before it were based on original instrumentation and composition and as such were far more clearly definable.

If people get bored of one sound in Hip Hop they can go sample something else.

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i get what you mean but thats overlooking the fact that funk and soul were pretty great at incorporating what they wanted from other genres such as latin stuff, rock, african music, jazz, etc etc etc. it just wasnt as obvious/literal maybe as it wasnt sampled.

droid said:

Ive got as much reason as anyone to want to see the back him - but I dont think hes being genuinely anti-semetic (oh the irony!), and I dont think mangling your words should be a bannable offense.

The way I see it, a ban should be the final option reserved for serious breaches of etiquette such as personal abuse etc.

That said, it might be constructive for the mods to step in a bit more often and give a bit of (or any!) guidance. Theres been a lot of recent threads around here that have been ruined by trolling... someone has to draw a line at some point or else the anti-social behaviour of the few is left unchecked, resulting in people feeling they have license to say whatever the fuck they want without consequences...

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i don't want to totally derail this thread, but...its not that he offends per se- i'm sure i do to, but its all buick 6 does and he manages to do without SAYING anything. its like working with an over excited 16 year old who suffers a bizarre case of the tourettes.

I believe that is why Hip Hop came into ascendance. While Soul and Hip Hop actually share many similarities in terms of ethos, it seems to me that Soul reached a point where the methods of integrating other sounds and experimenting with new ideas were not sufficient and the music stagnated.

Hip Hop exists currently in an age where technology is moving at an incredible pace, more often than not out-pacing the ideas with which artists come up with to utilise the tools at their disposal. I am sure one day Hip Hop will become stagnant in terms of experimentation and integration and people will move onto something else. But with the tools at people's disposal within the Hip Hop genre I can't see that happening in a while. Hip Hop is just the music around at the right time for it to last this long.

stelfox said:

anyway, this should really be on another thread shouldn't it, or we'll ruin this one, too

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Unfortunately that thread's been hijacked as well!

Point taken though.

Sorry people.

mattb said:

its not that he offends per se- i'm sure i do to, but its all buick 6 does and he manages to do without SAYING anything. its like working with an over excited 16 year old who suffers a bizarre case of the tourettes.

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I getcha Matt - I think thats his main talent - offending people whilst offering no insight of his own whatsoever.

isn't it also to with with hip-hop being a 'culture' as well as a music- it allows all sorts of influences/styles to be sucked in, whilst at the same time locking practitioners into the genre.

Logan Sama said:

I believe that is why Hip Hop came into ascendance. While Soul and Hip Hop actually share many similarities in terms of ethos, it seems to me that Soul reached a point where the methods of integrating other sounds and experimenting with new ideas were not sufficient and the music stagnated.

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hmmm
to be honest, you could parallel funk and soul in the 80s to hip hop in the last ten years or so... soul/funk went digital and electronic in the 80s similar to how hip hop's been much less about gritty soul and funk samples and more about cold electronic sounds since timbaland/neptunes et al came about. i dont think soul reached a point of stagnation because it stopped integrating other sounds (there are other reasons hip hop essentially took its place as the most popular music of black america) - anything but really, it mutated into disco which was quite a different animal that a lot of funk and soul artists loathed with a passion, then in the 80s it integrated the brand new tech of the day - drum machines and synths.

spotrusha said:

i don't know if it necessarily "replaced" hip-hop, but what about house/techno? this was for the most part created by black youths.

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yes, but house/techno were heavily reliant upon "white" influences from day one

and were then very quickly "co-opted" by whites

so i agree, in large part, with the POLITICAL explanation, i.e., that the vitality of hip hop has everything to do with black americans having successfully kept it their own

which raises several other questions . . . .

(1) why have white americans failed, or in the main not attempted, to appropriate hip hop???

eminem gets serious props from black people, but he's like the only one

and i guess some blacks would rate beastie boys

(2) why is there significant white participation in hip hop production, but rarely in mc'ing?


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ALSO, and is this is to repeat a point made by Reynolds many times over, black artists from the inner city are HUNGRY for success and fame -- and this hunger is the motor of sonic innovation in hip hop

but again, this raises questions like

(1) are white musicians in the rock'n'roll medium less hungry for fame? -- i.e., we all know about the small-scale ambition of indie artists, but is this true across the board for rock musicians, i.e., distrust of fame and success???

(2) or does it have to do with audience expectations? -- i.e., maybe white rock'n'roll audience PREFERS sounds that are not obviously commercial -- and yet this disdain for the mainstream results in a conservative "indie" aesthetic, which has nonetheless been mainstreamed -- whereas black audiences, by contrast, have no such disdain for the commercial or mainstream b/c they already are and always have been at the social margins -- and so black audience by and large looks for fresh sounds that have open designs on market share

dominic said:

(2) why is there significant white participation in hip hop production, but rarely in mc'ing?

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Because what is accepted as the genuine 'face' of hiphop is black, whearas the invisible hands are colourless? To people, especially not those into hiphop, the rapper is the super-visible focus of attention and the DJ much less important.

matt b said:

isn't it also to with with hip-hop being a 'culture' as well as a music- it allows all sorts of influences/styles to be sucked in, whilst at the same time locking practitioners into the genre.

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I guess that's partly true, but the culture of hip hop has changed almost as much as the music has. It used to be all about the aprty and now it's about a million different things.

dominic said:

(1) why have white americans failed, or in the main not attempted, to appropriate hip hop???

eminem gets serious props from black people, but he's like the only one

and i guess some blacks would rate beastie boys

(2) why is there significant white participation in hip hop production, but rarely in mc'ing?

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It's all about cred init? White people are hidden in hip hop because it will destroy the image, despite the fact that the vast majority of hip hop fans/consumers are as white as me. Interestingly this spills over in other areas too. In NZ all the successful MCs are maori/pacific islander and in grime the vast majority of MCs are black, even if a huge number of the producers/djs are white.

(note that this sounds a little like I'm complaining about it. I could czre less about white people being seen in hip hop myself)

Melchior said:

despite the fact that the vast majority of hip hop fans/consumers are as white as me

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yeah, but the serious heads are in the main black, the hardcore crews

that's why it's still black-owned, so to speak

droid said:

I think youve misunderstood the subtleties of Buick's approach. He's not actually anti-semetic, hes simply adopting an ironic anti-semetic/racist pose to parody the suffocatingly anti-semetic/racist atmosphere thats prevelant here.

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Thanks Droid, your my mate and comrade now!

But part of my shtick as an anarchist is to challenge ANY (organised) power structures. Hiphop is now intrinsically part of the modern-Capatalist machine and part of the same production-line mediocrity.

One of the most compellingly disgusting TV shows I've seen, besides anything Bangcock Hilton is in, is MTV's 'Cribs' show, where these one-hit-wonder rappers and other wankers (including Robbie 'Still trying to make it in USA' Williams) shows off their plush mansions. The funny thing is will they still own those places in 5 years when the next star comes along, or will they become Black Panthers shouting about how the man ripped them off?

Guys

there are tons of white rappers. Many of whom are successful regionally. And I don't mean just the media-darling indie dudes - Paul Walls, Lil Wytes, Bubba Sparxx, Haystacks, Eminems, EC Illas, Tow Downs (heh well maybe not) etc.

DavidD said:

Total eyeroll at caroica funk 'replacing' rap music. It is rap music, in the sense that it holds the same/similar cultural-musical space for Brazillians that rap does here.

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Errr no! funk carioca is deeply unpopular in brazil, except for a small minority, of (usually male)
favela dwellers.