Bank Charges

sufi

lala
i got back £3K :D i didn't report back becos they don't have internet in my caribbean tax haven ;)
also mi hermano newliberia got £2K
lush
 

swears

preppy-kei
HSBC is really fucking me about. I rang up and ask for records for the last 6 years, they charge me a tenner and say it 'll be 14 days "about two weeks, sir". I ring after two weeks and they tell me it's 40 days.

"I'm sure you said 14 days."
"No sir, 40 days"

So, two months later (today) I ring up and ask where the statements are.

"Oh, it's 40 working days, sir."

"It's been 40 working days!"

(sounding unsure)"Oh, erm...you have to account for bank holidays."

"I have."

"Errr...well I'll see what we can do."

I'm not holding my breath.
 

mms

sometimes
there is a current hold on this procedure but i'm definitely going to get on it.

i've got in this bad situation where i went some way over my overdraft when i was on holiday, didn't really realize, and since then i've got in a cycle of getting charged money by the banks which takes me over my limit every month, even when i wasn't before the charge, it seems inescapable but luckily my gf has offered to help me out a bit here, it's ridiculous as one bad month or one mistake can create a world of being very skint cos of these huge charges which fuck you even more every month, even though you're trying to save some money to get out of the situation, it doesn't matter as last month's bank charges will still take you back over the limit, and a week or so before i get paid makes it pretty impossible.
I'm ok with money, the only debts i have is my overdraft, and i'm fairly frugal, but they've fucked me on this one.
 

sufi

lala
those dirty fuckers
they charged me 90£ because i was about a dozen nicker over my limit over bank holiday weekend - i called them & deposited money straifght away & they assured me no charges would be incurred but guess what they LIE
when i saw they tried to snuck it thru on internet banking i called them full up with righteous indignation & the poor lass from hyderabad put me on hold then offered immediately to reduce it to £40 i told her i would need to speak to her supervisor ... on hold again & then she agreed to drop the lot. :D

they are fucking sharks trying it on ... don't let them get you in that OD trap M, every time you see them putting charges on yr acc phone them and give them verbals til they repay you - they should repay every one of those charges - if you call them & heavy them they will probably offer to 1/2 it at least, (tell them they have no right to take out extotionate charges wwhen it's them that put you overdrawn) that will get you out of their evil clutches then litigate for the rest...
as for the procedure i think you can get them up to the court but the decision might be waiting for the test case now,, get the letters sent off, exactly as per consumeraction forum & they'll probably just make you an offer to get you off their back,
:cool:
 

swears

preppy-kei
What's going on with this? Is it still at the high court? Any news articles or info on this seems to be from months ago... Someone told me the legal proceedings could go on from between one to five YEARS.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"What's going on with this? Is it still at the high court? Any news articles or info on this seems to be from months ago... Someone told me the legal proceedings could go on from between one to five YEARS."
Good timing Swears, it's on the front pages of the papers today. The court case is now starting, they reckon it should take eight to ten days.... then a judgment can be expected in April or May (why the delay I've no idea)... then whoever loses will almost certainly appeal... still, the wheels are in motion... come on OFT I say.
 

straight

wings cru
just found out even though there is a freeze on bank charges you can still claim credit card charges back, despite what the bank says. i was lucky, got 700 quid back from abbey just before the freeze
 

vimothy

yurp
You can find the charges on your bank's balance sheet -- very instructive and very lucrative!

Bastards -- they owe me a few thousand, I reckon. Is there really a freeze on claiming?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Is there really a freeze on claiming?"
I think that up to a point banks were paying charges back when threatened with court, fearing a decision that could go against them and set a precedent. When the number of applications reached a critical mass and the banks realised that everyone was going to claim them back anyway they decided to face the court case and until that case is decided they will not be returning any more charges (and I think they have agreed a temporary ceasefire with the OFT), if you sent off a demand for charges the worst you could threaten them with is the case that is already in progress (or finished today in fact). For that reason there is an effective freeze on claims at the moment, I don't think that that means you won't be able to claim when the case is settled.
 

swears

preppy-kei
The banks are going to drag this out forever aren't they? Could be years 'til anyone gets their money back.
 

swears

preppy-kei
I know a couple of people who managed to get a couple of grand back, around the time this malarkey started. Doesn't look like anyone will now, though. HSBC can still charge you up to 125 pounds a month for being even a few pence over your limit! My 17 year old brother is opening an account and he's setting it up so if he tries to withdraw anything over his limit it simply won't let him. The best way.
 

sufi

lala
http://www.penaltycharges.co.uk said:
The Judgment

Firstly the Lord Walker highlighted the fact that many members of the public were not aware of the limited nature of the issue, which the court had to decide in the appeal.

At Para 45 Lord Walker Said “…The Directive and the 1999 Regulations apply only to terms which have not been individually negotiated“. Clearly the contract we all entered into with the banks has not been individually negotiated so the regulations do apply.

Lord Philips Para 57. Stated the issue is whether the relevant charges constitute “the price or Remuneration, as against the services supplied in exchange” within the meaning of the Regulation. If they do not, the attack on the fairness of the term that is open to the OFT will not be circumscribed (restricted) by Regulation 6(2)b. If they do, then they will still be open to attack by the OFT on the ground that they are “Unfair” as defined by regulation 5(1) but that attack cannot be founded on an allegation that the Relevant Charges are excessive by comparison with the services which they Purchase, for that is forbidden by regulation 6(2)b

So what does this mean, well it means that the Court has ruled that the charges for bounced direct debits and unauthorised overdrafts etc are part of the price for the services, therefore they cannot be tested for fairness under Regulation 6(2)b of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999, However the Court has said that the OFT can assess the Fairness of the price under Regulation 5.1. According to other criteria. (See Para 59)

This point is further explained in Para 80. Lord Philips states ‘it seems to me that this reasoning is relevant not to the question of whether the Relevant Charges form Part of the price or remuneration for the package of the services provided but to whether the method of pricing is fair. (My emphasis added) It may be open to question whether it is fair to subsidise some customers by levies on others who experience contingencies that they did not for see when entering into their contracts. If not it may then be open to question whether the Relevant Terms fall within Regulation 5(1)….” Clearly his lordship highlighted that the court may be persuaded that it is unfair for some consumer to pay for services that other consumers benefit from for free.
What’s more it is mostly the consumers who are on low incomes and struggling financially that are paying for everyone else. This is in my opinion not fair, and shows the banks have not acted in “Good faith”. Or as Lord Mance’s suggested in the trial, that ‘the banks were engaged in a sort of Robin Hood in reverse’ (see Para 2) I would suggest he means the banks were taking from the poor to subsidise the rich.

All the Lords appear to have agreed with Lord Walkers final Paragraph that being 52, in which he said ‘…This decision is not the end of the matter’, as Lord Philips explains in his judgment. Moreover Ministers and Parliament may wish to consider this matter further. They decided in an era of so-called “light-touch” regulation, to transpose the directive as it stood rather that to confer the higher degree of consumer protection afforded by the national laws of some other member states. Parliament may wish to consider whether to revisit that decision.’

So what does all this mean, well it means the following

1. The OFT can still look at the charges under UTCCR 1999, and always has been able to. They could now launch a new test case. (However, what must be asked is why was there a two year test case on a very narrow point of law? when the OFT already had the ability to assess the fairness of theses charges under Regulation 5.1 and others )

2. All consumers who have submitted a claim using the Old Particulars of Claim, arguing that the price was unfair and or that these are a penalty charges. Needs to amend their claim to include an argument under regulation 5.1. (a new Particulars of claim will be live on the site tomorrow with full instructions on what you need to do)

3. We also need to put pressure on the Government to amend the Regulation so we all have the same consumer protection rights that other member states have. (So get writing to your MP’s a template letter for this will be on the site within 48 hours)

4. I am sorry to say but I would like to see the stay remain in place, for a least a month. This will give consumers time to amend their claims and other consumer groups and I will be discussing the possibility of joining forces to bring a joint Class action. I feel this would insure that we could make sure that all the legal arguments are covered in full. I will update you all on this when I have spoken to the other consumer forums.

Finally, I will explain Regulation 5(1) in more detail on the site for those that are interested. However, what was important in this news letter is to confirm that this was basically a set back to the OFT and not to consumers. Claims can still be filed.
The FSA has also lifted the Wavier.

I hope that the OFT if they do decided to bring a new action, that they will now invite the consumer groups to the table. Something we asked them to do before this test case, sadly that request was refused.

To conclude, the test case has only resulted in us having to amend the Particulars Of Claim and resulted in a two year delay, other than that we are back to the position we were in two years ago.

So was this test case a victory for the Banks, yes they beat the OFT on a small point of law, they did not beat the consumer forums and or the consumers.
which is to say i think that the banks may have won this battle, but the stuggle continues
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Ha, love this line:

Or as Lord Mance’s suggested in the trial, that ‘the banks were engaged in a sort of Robin Hood in reverse’ (see Para 2) I would suggest he means the banks were taking from the poor to subsidise the rich.

This is normally just called 'banking', isn't it?
 

vimothy

yurp
Numbers time: You work at a collections agency. Someone calls you with $2,000 in credit card debt; they are paying 30% interest from missing a payment, and they are having trouble making the minimum 3% payment, and are racking up a $50 late fee every other month. You are confident that they will default in X months, and not pay a penny of the remaining balance. You could give them a Fix Pay loan, which would be a 6% annual interest, no more fees, that they would pay off over 4 years with 100% certainty.

At what X, if it exists, is it more profitable to deny them the Fix Pay loan? And what is the remaining balance on the credit card? Here’s a quick google spreadsheet exercise, which shows (with an appropriate 3% cost of capital, or discount rate, as indicated in credit card literature), that in this example X is 24 months, with $1,205 on the balance. To make that clear, rather than having the consumer pay off the full loan over 4 years with 100% certainty at 6% and no fees, it’s more profitable to charge 30% interest and fees for 2 years and then simply forget about the $1,250 that is still on the balance when the consumer finally goes under. Anything more you could get out of them, in court or with a few more minimum payments, is gravy.

http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/jackie-ramos-and-the-issue-of-fix-pay/
 

vimothy

yurp
Yes, yes, with hindsight we're all very smart. But in any case, as our friendly financial engineer shows, that's obviously not the dominant strategy for banks.
 
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