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Thread: This is an escalation without precedent in the terrorist war waged by...Hamas"

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by foret
    the bbc has the 15 lebanese civilian deaths as their leadng story, american sites like fox news and nytimes have the israeli military casualties first
    I've been noticing stuff like this for days now- it seems particularly acute. Omission of details also becomes problematic when it's so one sided.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sufi
    what is your stake?
    Hiroshima2?

    Quote Originally Posted by foret
    who are more likely to kill their captives, hezbollah or hamas? two different situations
    Both. Hisbullah and Hamas are pretty much the same thing in different places, you know like America and East New York, I mean Israel (according to most anti-Zionites, anyway)

    Quote Originally Posted by foret
    did anyone see what happened to the two american soldiers in iraq, very nasty :x
    Yeah shit happens. But look at that hick that went on the murder-rape rampage in Iraq. He gets labelled 'mentally unstable' and faces a death sentence. In the Middle-East they call you something along the lines a 'hero martyr of liberation champion of allah and the prophets' and hide you out in a cave with 20 virgins or some of yr hairy boyfriends.

    It's the best offense the militants have - psychological media outrage, fear, revulsion, divide and conquer - all perfect rules of terrorism engagement, not the sort of stuff that entices you to hold hands and sing Koombayah is it?

    The middle east, you've got every unsolvable paradox known to man - religious, genetic, classist, Marxist, corporatist. You know everyone seems to have forgot about Chaos theory in today's po-mo world, as things become more homogenised, choatic elements will blow everything apart - thats how I see the mid-East scenario. For all the fucken bullshit 'cradle of civilisation' waffle that region seems to have given mankind, the motherfuckers have never produced a decent rock band.
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  3. #33
    foret Guest

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    Hisbullah and Hamas are pretty much the same thing in different places, you know like America and East New York, I mean Israel (according to most anti-Zionites, anyway)
    though hezbollah are shi'ite khomeini-ites and hamas are sunni

    For all the fucken bullshit 'cradle of civilisation' waffle that region seems to have given mankind, the motherfuckers have never produced a decent rock band
    very good!

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by foret
    though hezbollah are shi'ite khomeini-ites and hamas are sunni
    Yes, but their hatred of Jews, Zionists, Americans and homosexuals are so threatening to their own existence that it becomes absolutely irrelevant. Oh and Iran just happen to be one of Hamas's biggest financial sponsors
    Last edited by Buick6; 16-07-2006 at 07:47 AM.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by buick
    Quote Originally Posted by sufi
    what is your stake?
    Hiroshima2?
    what exactly do you mean here, numpty? you're 100% predicting hiroshima2??
    Quote Originally Posted by buick
    Quote Originally Posted by foret
    who are more likely to kill their captives, hezbollah or hamas? two different situations
    Both. Hisbullah and Hamas are pretty much the same thing in different places, you know like America and East New York, I mean Israel (according to most anti-Zionites, anyway)
    what exactly are you trying to say here?
    Quote Originally Posted by buick
    Quote Originally Posted by foret
    did anyone see what happened to the two american soldiers in iraq, very nasty :x
    Yeah shit happens. But look at that hick that went on the murder-rape rampage in Iraq. He gets labelled 'mentally unstable' and faces a death sentence. In the Middle-East they call you something along the lines a 'hero martyr of liberation champion of allah and the prophets' and hide you out in a cave with 20 virgins or some of yr hairy boyfriends.
    pure nasty prejudiced lies, buick, what has rape got to do with islamic martyrdom?
    Quote Originally Posted by buick

    It's the best offense the militants have - psychological media outrage, fear, revulsion, divide and conquer - all perfect rules of terrorism engagement, not the sort of stuff that entices you to hold hands and sing Koombayah is it?

    The middle east, you've got every unsolvable paradox known to man - religious, genetic, classist, Marxist, corporatist. You know everyone seems to have forgot about Chaos theory in today's po-mo world, as things become more homogenised, choatic elements will blow everything apart - thats how I see the mid-East scenario. For all the fucken bullshit 'cradle of civilisation' waffle that region seems to have given mankind, the motherfuckers have never produced a decent rock band.
    this shows clearly where you're coming from - this whole disingenuous shpiel about 'unsolvable paradox' is just a way of avoiding acknowledging any of the real issues of power politics in the region (same with n ireland - 'o that conflict is down to age-old tribal conflicts among primitive peoples'). the fact that you seem to have swallowed that bullshit shows you up as a sucker who don't know what you're on about, dood

    give us a break from your incoherent bullshit please, buick - best stick to chatting about what you know = 'rock' music, dood

  6. #36
    droid Guest

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    Theres so much going on here that its difficult to know where to start. As I mentioned in previous posts, the original pretext that Israel has to take extreme measures in order to defend itself from Qassam rockets launched from the Gaza strip (ironically named, as the original Qassam was far more symbolic than he was effective), is exposed as exactly that when you look at the horrendous imbalance in the casualties on both sides. Once again this is all about Israel stamping its authority on the region and sending out a clear message that it will brook no resistance, regardless of whether it is directed at military or civilian targets, a postition seemingly supported by Bush as he calls for 'restraint on both sides' (echoing China's ambivilant attitude to N.Korea's missile tests), and for Hezbollah to 'lay down their arms'.

    Hezbollah's attack in the North is far more problematic, as despite the apparant show of solidarity with Hamas, Hezbollah has in fact been attacking Israeli troops along the border for months now, in an attempt to gain a bargaining chip to secure the freedom of Lebanese hostages held by the Israelis since their withdrawal, and as part of their operations in the disputed Sheeba Farms area. But once again, the point should be made that this is business as usual in the North, and has been for over 20 years - arguably not the 'escalation' its painted as, and hardly a justification for the bombardment of an entire nation.

    Now it goes without saying that Hezbollah's extremeist brand of Islam, its anti-semetism, homobhobia and attitudes to women are abbhorent, but it has to be said that they are widely supported by Lebanese Shi-ites for their role in ousting Israel from Southern Lebanon, and that most of their 'terrorist' attacks have been aimed squarely at the IDF operating on Lebanese soil - which hardly qualifies them as terrorism at all - not something that can be said about Katayusha rocket attacks against civilian targets. Nonetheless, I dont think there can be any serious debate about the disproportionate nature of Israel's response - would the British army be justified in bombing Dublin airport if the IRA captured some British soldiers and fired mortars from across the border? Would they be justified in launching airstrikes and naval bombardments which have killed over 100 civillians in just a few days? Lets not forget that Lebanon has no real army of note and is effectively defenceless other than the presence of Hezbollah Guerillas - so Israel's reponse only adds to Hezbollah's popularity in the long term.

    The latest hint of the real motives behind this is Israel's announcement yesterday that the attack on its ship came from an 'Iranian'' made missile. Now apart from the fact that its hardly news that Hezbollah has Iranian made weapons, nor does it demonstrate that iran was 'behind' this, this statement does perhaps offer a glimpse of the logic behind Israel's actions - do they really want to draw Iran into the conflict by inventing a pretext for attack, and then provoking a response? (as David Horowitz suggests)

    No mention of course that the missiles, bullets and shells pulverising the Gaza strip and Lebanon are all American made, and of course, no one asks the question - does this fact justify a future Syrian or Iranian attack on US cities?

    Putting aside all moral concerns and talk of silly distractions like the UN charter or the Geneva Conventions (or the Universal declaration of Human Rights for that matter), this all just underpins the idea that Israel has no long term strategic plan other than to continue to crush anybody who offers the slightest sign of resistance, whilst consolidating territory in the west bank, extending their contol over water resources in Northern Israel, and enroaching on Palestinian enclaves through the construction of the Security 'fence'. All strategies which put them in direct conflict with an increasingly desperate Palestinain population and inflame opinion in neighbouring sates, leading to more attacks and further escaltion.

    Meanwhile, the only power with any real influence sits on its hands and offers complicit approval whilst commentators worldwide ponder on the 'unsolvable paradox' of how the 3rd greatest miltary power in the world (9.45 billion in 2005) can hope to defend itself from unprovoked terrorist attacks.

    A few articles:

    Horowitz advocates attack on Iran

    Jonathan Cook on Gaza

    Irish Times - Battle of Beruit

    Fisk on Lebanon

    Fisk on hezbollah

    Last edited by droid; 16-07-2006 at 04:44 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sufi
    what exactly do you mean here, numpty? you're 100% predicting hiroshima2??
    I didn't put a figure in there you did, but it could happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by sufi
    what exactly are you trying to say here?
    pure nasty prejudiced lies, buick, what has rape got to do with islamic martyrdom?
    I find both of them equally disgusting. Both evolved out of repression, one sexual and the other by a religion. And how 'pure' are these lies, as 'pure' as your own 'facts'?

    Quote Originally Posted by sufi
    this shows clearly where you're coming from - this whole disingenuous shpiel about 'unsolvable paradox' is just a way of avoiding acknowledging any of the real issues of power politics in the region (same with n ireland - 'o that conflict is down to age-old tribal conflicts among primitive peoples'). the fact that you seem to have swallowed that bullshit shows you up as a sucker who don't know what you're on about, dood
    I haven't swallowed any bullshit, the Northern Ireland was another deeply religious/land based conflict. God is on the side with the more weapons. And everybody calls on god for help when these manmade issues arise. I guess when one lives and the other dies or one has more money than the other you thank god. The Israelis think they are better than everyone, and now they are getting shocks with the range of the Hizbullah weapons which 'know one exactly knows where they came from'. Well obviously someone is making and providing them to even the score, someone who's got WAY bigger plans than any Israeli expansionism.

    Quote Originally Posted by sufi
    give us a break from your incoherent bullshit please, buick - best stick to chatting about what you know = 'rock' music, dood
    I will, it makes me far happier than this fucken shit, habib.
    Last edited by Buick6; 17-07-2006 at 09:41 AM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buick6



    I haven't swallowed any bullshit, the Northern Ireland was another deeply religious/land based conflict. :
    There's so much wrong with that, from the grammar upwards

    On the substantive issue; i spent the weekend reading Daniel Deronda, George Eliot's weird book about the position of Jews in 19th c. England; as I heard about the bombing of Lebanon, I was reading the section where Mordecai, a visionary proto- Zionist talks about how a jewish state in Palastine will be a beacon in the region, how the jews will bring the values of the enlightenment, absorbed through their long exile, to flower in the desert. It brings home with a shock - because it is expressed in a language jarring to a modern ear - the colonialism at the heart of the Zionist project, the noble undertaking of a civilising mission, echoes of which can still be heard when Israel is held up as being worthy of support as the only democracy in the area. The arrogant assumption that such an influence would improve the area, and the even bigger assumption at the heart of western liberalism, the believe that it alone can explain and assimilate other discourses - such as Islam - once exposed to the clear light of reason

  9. #39
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    my gut feeling on watching the footage of bombs puncturing the tarmac of beirut international was that this was wrong. the legality of this and other actions is scrutinised in this hrw document, a sample:

    The real, unstated reason for Israel’s attack on the airport may be precisely to impose a cost on Lebanese civilians to encourage them to press their government to rein in Hezbollah. Leaving aside the question of whether the Lebanese government is militarily capable of reining in Hezbollah, it is illegal under international humanitarian law, as noted below, to use military force to squeeze the civilian population, to enhance its suffering, or to undermine its morale, regardless of the ultimate purpose. Under these circumstances, the attack on the Beirut airport does not appear to have been legitimate under the standards of international humanitarian law.

    whatever happened to israeli covert operations? thunderbolt, wrath of god. even their worst enemies respected the cunning and sheer guts on display here. more important is that these were carried out to right wrongs, not humiliate and kill indiscriminately. the difference between this israel and the one i see today is like day and night, the moral compass is lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid
    Meanwhile, the only power with any real influence sits on its hands and offers complicit approval whilst commentators worldwide ponder on the 'unsolvable paradox' of how the 3rd greatest miltary power in the world (9.45 billion in 2005) can hope to defend itself from unprovoked terrorist attacks.

    A few articles:

    Horowitz advocates attack on Iran

    Jonathan Cook on Gaza

    Irish Times - Battle of Beruit

    Fisk on Lebanon

    Fisk on hezbollah

    Fantastic. This guy is defintely bi-polar! Got any other non-polarising opinions, or is it just the shitty weather in Ireland?
    Last edited by Buick6; 18-07-2006 at 09:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D7_bohs
    There's so much wrong with that, from the grammar upwards

    On the substantive issue; i spent the weekend reading Daniel Deronda, George Eliot's weird book about the position of Jews in 19th c. England; as I heard about the bombing of Lebanon, I was reading the section where Mordecai, a visionary proto- Zionist talks about how a jewish state in Palastine will be a beacon in the region, how the jews will bring the values of the enlightenment, absorbed through their long exile, to flower in the desert. It brings home with a shock - because it is expressed in a language jarring to a modern ear - the colonialism at the heart of the Zionist project, the noble undertaking of a civilising mission, echoes of which can still be heard when Israel is held up as being worthy of support as the only democracy in the area. The arrogant assumption that such an influence would improve the area, and the even bigger assumption at the heart of western liberalism, the believe that it alone can explain and assimilate other discourses - such as Islam - once exposed to the clear light of reason
    ...And another, maybe U2 should head east, at least the hot weather there stops you reading books all day. Lets not forget the Ottoman Empire if we wanna get all colonialistic on our asses,, it's not my fault, nor the Israelis it fell apart. Ho hum, I didn't realise you could could 'hear' books either, though I don't mind the odd Chomsky podcast maesel'.
    You know I really enjoy reading all these 'facts' you guys dredge up off the Internet, some have been quite enlightening, and others hideoulsy biased. I reckon it's terrible what Israel is doing to those poor innocent Lebanese and Palestinians, but if they all spent as much time improving their own lot than blaming and harassing the Jews for all their fucking woes, well, they might just just be as well off as the Jews, wouldn't they? I rest my case.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buick6
    Fantastic. This guy is defintely bi-polar! Got any other non-polarising opinions, or is it just the shitty weather in Ireland?
    lol. If I was Bi-polar I'd posting up an Al-Qaida editorial to counter Horowitz's comments.

    Speaking of Bi-polarism - arent you the gimp who was throwing idiotic accusations of anti-semetism around not so long ago?

    You seem a bit more reasonable all of a sudden...

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buick6
    ...And another, maybe U2 should head east, at least the hot weather there stops you reading books all day. Lets not forget the Ottoman Empire if we wanna get all colonialistic on our asses,, it's not my fault, nor the Israelis it fell apart. Ho hum, I didn't realise you could could 'hear' books either, though I don't mind the odd Chomsky podcast maesel'.
    You know I really enjoy reading all these 'facts' you guys dredge up off the Internet, some have been quite enlightening, and others hideoulsy biased. I reckon it's terrible what Israel is doing to those poor innocent Lebanese and Palestinians, but if they all spent as much time improving their own lot than blaming and harassing the Jews for all their fucking woes, well, they might just just be as well off as the Jews, wouldn't they? I rest my case.
    I spoke to soon.

    Youre quite possibly a moron - but dont feel bad, youre in good company.

    This is an actual transcript btw - no joke!

    Bush: Yo Blair How are you doing?
    Blair: I'm just...
    Bush: You're leaving?
    Blair: No, no, no not yet. On this trade thingy...[inaudible]
    Bush: yeah I told that to the man
    Blair: Are you planning to say that here or not?
    Bush: If you want me to
    Blair: Well, it's just that if the discussion arises...
    Bush: I just want some movement.
    Blair: Yeah
    Bush: Yesterday we didn't see much movement
    Blair: No, no, it may be that it's not, it maybe that it's impossible
    Bush: I am prepared to say it
    Blair: But it's just I think what we need to be an opposition
    Bush: Who is introducing the trade
    Blair: Angela
    Bush: Tell her to call 'em
    Blair: Yes
    Bush: Tell her to put him on them on the spot.Thanks for [inaudbible] it's awfully thoughtful of you
    Blair: It's a pleasure
    Bush: I know you picked it out yourself
    Blair: Oh, absoultely, in fact [inaudble]
    Bush: What about Kofi [inaudible] his attitude to ceasefire and everything else ... happens
    Blair: Yeah, no I think the [inaudible] is really difficult. We can't stop this unless you get this international business agreed.
    Bush: Yeah
    Blair: I don't know what you guys have talked about but as I say I am perfectly happy to try and see what the lie of the land is but you need that done quickly because otherwise it will spiral
    Bush: I think Condi is going to go pretty soon
    Blair: But that's that's that's all that matters. But if you, you see it will take some time to get that together
    Bush: Yeah, yeah
    Blair: But at least it gives people...
    Bush: It's a process, I agree. I told her your offer to...
    Blair: Well...it's only if I mean... you know. If she's got a..., or if she needs the ground prepared as it were... Because obviously if she goes out, she's got to succeed, if it were, whereas I can go out and just talk
    Bush: You see, the ... thing is what they need to do is to get Syria, to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit and it's over
    Blair: [inaudible]
    Bush: [inadubile]
    Blair: Syria
    Bush: Why?
    Blair: Because I think this is all part of the same thing
    Bush: Yeah.
    Blair: What does he think? He thinks if Lebanon turns out fine, if we get a solution in Israel and Palestine, Iraq goes in the right way...
    Bush: Yeah, yeah, he is sweet
    Blair: He is honey. And that's what the whole thing is about. It's the same with Iraq
    Bush: I felt like telling Kofi to call, to get on the phone to Bashad [Bashir Assad](9a and make something happen
    Blair: Yeah
    Bush: [inaudible]
    Blair:
    Bush: We are not blaming the Lebanese government
    Blair: Is this...? (at this point Blair taps the microphone in front of him and the sound is cut.)

    http://members.boardhost.com/DT3rd/msg/1153146767.html
    Last edited by droid; 18-07-2006 at 09:35 AM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid
    I spoke to soon.

    Youre quite possibly a moron - but dont feel bad, youre in good company.

    This is an actual transcript btw - no joke!
    Quite possibly, my moronic mind was moronic enough to end up here.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buick6
    ...And another, maybe U2 should head east, at least the hot weather there stops you reading books all day.
    It's being lovely here in Dublin for the last week, thanks.

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