This is an escalation without precedent in the terrorist war waged by...Hamas"

F

foret

Guest
droid said:
Is that where you get your history? From works of fiction? Youre joking right?

Check out that link and contradict its assertions if you have some facts. Otherwise...

does there need to be a ;-) emoticon after every post

some of my irish forefathers were jews who converted a long time ago, it couldn't have been easy to live as jew in ireland when they were so few (as compared to other very backwards catholic countries like poland)

(/digression)

why is the current israeli offensive so violent? i haven't been following it very closely but i cannot attribute the lack of proportionality to paranoia, racism, stupidity or any of the other reasons posited
 
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gek-opel

entered apprentice
Is it not partly to do with Ehud Olmert being pretty inexperienced, is he not in some senses attempting proving his militaristic credentials (of course, unlike Sharon he has none... beyond the standard IDF military service of course, though he was injured and temporarily released before completing it as a journalist for the IDF magazine). It does seem like this offensive is only going to be counterproductive in the long run. Whats interesting is why they picked the present time to attack the Lebanese border, as Hezbollah have apparently been mounting minor incursions for months now.
 
F

foret

Guest
maybe there is an element of that, but surely israel isn't so thoroughly militarised that they need every new administration to kill hundreds of arabs before they will the trust them

the strange thing is, that even 'liberal' israelis cited in newspapers buy into the israel as a tiny, vulnerable frontier state surrounded by powerful enemies myth and see hizballah as the latest incarnation of this
 

sherief

Generic Human
gek-opel said:
...It does seem like this offensive is only going to be counterproductive in the long run. Whats interesting is why they picked the present time to attack the Lebanese border, as Hezbollah have apparently been mounting minor incursions for months now...

seem? That's mighty generous. I think this was siezed on as pretense because it makes a fantastic media war when you've got a couple faces of these poor Israeli children (soldiers) who've been kidnapped by swarthy Arabs.
 
gek-opel said:
Is it not partly to do with Ehud Olmert being pretty inexperienced, is he not in some senses attempting proving his militaristic credentials (of course, unlike Sharon he has none... beyond the standard IDF military service of course, though he was injured and temporarily released before completing it as a journalist for the IDF magazine).

His aggressively impotent acting out (like Bush's, among others) is only a very token part of it, and completely misleading, as it serves to personalise wider social forces onto some convenient scapegoat. Bush's program, like Olmert's, predates both of them.

It does seem like this offensive is only going to be counterproductive in the long run. Whats interesting is why they picked the present time to attack the Lebanese border, as Hezbollah have apparently been mounting minor incursions for months now.

To provoke Iran. (Having earlier failed to "persuade" the US to attack Iran according to their plan; and having earlier got Syria out of Lebanon, they thought (like the US thought about Iraq) Lebanon would be easy prey).
 

John Doe

Well-known member
foret said:
does there need to be a ;-) emoticon after every post

some of my irish forefathers were jews who converted a long time ago, it couldn't have been easy to live as jew in ireland when they were so few (as compared to other very backwards catholic countries like poland)

(/digression)

why is the current israeli offensive so violent? i haven't been following it very closely but i cannot attribute the lack of proportionality to paranoia, racism, stupidity or any of the other reasons posited

[Inappropriate diversion mode] So Foret are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew? [end of inappropriate diversion mode] :)
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
@Hundredmilionlifetimes: It sounds a little conspiracy-theory esque, but I have to concur that the only plausible justification for Israel's behaviour is that they are conducting a proxy war on behalf of the US... with the effect, yes, of drawing Iran into increasingly open conflict. Quite what The US wants to do when they have a better excuse to attack Iran, I don't know... I think their hands are tied (ie- troop commitments in the rest of the middle east) beyond air-strikes...
 
THE LITANI RIVER OF LEBANON

Source: Geographical Review, Jul93, Vol. 83 Issue 3, p229, 9p.

ABSTRACT. This article examines the hydropolitics of the Middle East,
through a case study of the Litani River of Lebanon. The main thesis is
that the desire to obtain additional water sources has been a primary
influence on geostrategic interactions of Israel and its Arab neighbors.
Israeli efforts to utilize the waters of the Litani help explain the
establishment of the security zone in southern Lebanon. The apparent
decision by Israel to retain access to the river makes it difficult for
Lebanon to regain political stability and economic viability...

http://web.macam.ac.il/~arnon/Int-ME/water/THE LITANI RIVER.htm

the bullshit rhetoric about sustainable peace in the longterm without reverting back to the status quo suggests it's always been on the cards to do a land/water grab north with Gaza a sort of token gesture trade off

settle in cos its gonna be a long, expensive and bumpy ride

Iran and syria are the US agenda, Israel could wipe them off the face of the earth at any time so they're not going to stick their neck out too far just hang Lebanon out to dry

Funny how it's the 50 year anniversary of Britain carving up the spoils of post ww2 victory. They defined the middle east and are now reduced to impotent spectators.

What's Blairs position on it ?...wiping condis arse and the shit off bush's mouth.

Anyone want to buy some weapons ? Cant fight a war against terror without em lol
 

Buick6

too punk to drunk
Kick out the motherfuckers, Jimmae

..and exactly how 'un powerful' are these enemies? They have millions more numbers, and if we talk about 'power' as all you do, numbers and 'majorities' will always have the upper hand.

'Those who cannot protect their freedom do not deserve it'
By Yair Ettinger http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=Yair&itemNo=743197

Shortly before midnight, the soldiers of the Golani Brigade’s Regiment 13, Company A gathered a few meters from the Lebanese border. In a few minutes, they were due to cross the border and join the battle, like their comrades in Regiment 51, who fought in Bint Jbail yesterday and sustained fatalities.

‘It’s our turn now,’ said Captain Ori Lavie. ‘It’s our turn to protect the border. And we’ll carry out any mission we need to, against any force, in the best way possible. If we don’t, we have no right to exist.’

Excited and armed from head to toe, the young soldiers listened, hanging onto every word he uttered.

‘We will not lose this war,’ said Lavie. ‘We did not start it, but it’s our duty to protect the Jewish nation and see to it that the residents of Metula and Haifa can live in peace. If we don’t do it, no one will. We waited 2,000 years for our own state, and we won’t fold because a group of terrorists think that they can scare us.’

‘Someone who cannot protect his freedom does not deserve it,’ he continued. ‘When missiles and rockets land on all the northern cities and reach Haifa, and when two of our soldiers have been kidnapped and ten have been killed and dozens have been wounded ‘ this is no time to talk, it’s time to fight. From the moment we cross the border, you must be super alert, super sharp. We are threatened from every side. Each of you is responsible for his comrades.’

The soldiers have spent most of the day attending briefings on tactics and the rules of engagement, cleaning weapons, tightening bulletproof vests, adjusting straps, checking radios and bandages. Finally, they smeared camouflage paint on each other’s faces.

These activities helped blunt their emotions. But a moment before entering Lebanon, they must boost their fighting spirit. Before the commander’s briefing, military rabbis distributed volumes of Psalms and offered a prayer before battle.

‘Everyone here must be alert and do everything possible to spot the terrorist first,’ Lavie told them. ‘We must be the ones to open fire first, we must surprise them, not the other way around. Everyone is responsible for his own life, the life of his comrade and all our lives. We’re all in the same boat.’

The soldiers joined the army only eight months ago. Most of them are 19 years old, and under the war paint, they still look like boys. Their combat experience consists of brief activity in the Gaza Strip at the beginning of the month. Some of them admit that they are afraid. But most say that they have dreamed about fighting in Lebanon since they joined the army.

‘I’ve been in the army for six years, and have never had as much confidence as I have in this company,’ said Lavie. ‘You’ve proved yourselves more than once, not only in fighting. We did well in training, we did well in Gaza, we’ll do well now. There is no better company than this one. You are lions. No one will kill terrorists like this company.’

After the talk, the soldiers had time for another quick call home and another text message on their cell phone. Some did not tell their parents where they were.

Company medic Yossi Werker admitted that he is a little afraid. ‘I think of my friend who was killed two weeks ago in Gaza and of my responsibility to look after the wounded. There is an 80 percent chance that there will be casualties. I have faith in the platoon medics. I also want to have time to say the prayer before going into battle myself. Not many are religious in Golani, but most of the guys believe,’ he said.

Werker activated his cell phone to read a message from his girlfriend of two months, Mor. ‘Sweetie, look after yourself, you’re the most adorable man in the world,’ she wrote. But he was disappointed. Earlier in the day, he told her for the first time that he loved her. ‘She’s the best girl I’ve ever met in my life,’ he said. ‘If you print that, it will help the war effort.’
 
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F

foret

Guest
John Doe said:
[Inappropriate diversion mode] So Foret are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew? [end of inappropriate diversion mode]

the former i suppose (excommunication awaits)
 

John Doe

Well-known member
Buick6 said:
...

‘Someone who cannot protect his freedom does not deserve it,’ he continued.

An interesting perspective.

I wonder if he'd consider the millions of Jews murdered by the Nazis did not 'deserve' their freedom because they could not 'protect' it?
 
O

Omaar

Guest
For people living in London

All London Emergency Protest, 5pm today

London Protest Friday 28 July 5pm to 7pm
Downing Street, Whitehall, London, SW1
•End the attacks's on Lebanon and Gaza
•End Blair's support for Bush's war

http://www.stopthewar.co.uk/
 

Freakaholic

not just an addiction
gek-opel said:
@Hundredmilionlifetimes: It sounds a little conspiracy-theory esque, but I have to concur that the only plausible justification for Israel's behaviour is that they are conducting a proxy war on behalf of the US... with the effect, yes, of drawing Iran into increasingly open conflict. Quite what The US wants to do when they have a better excuse to attack Iran, I don't know... I think their hands are tied (ie- troop commitments in the rest of the middle east) beyond air-strikes...


this idea has been carefully avoided by all media outlets thus far. but it is still possible. however, i think the US-Israel relationship works differently. I think the US fights Israels proxy wars, not the other way around.

But then, there is the news, carefully released to the press on Saturday to avoid excessive attention, that Israel asked the US to speed up its delivery of missles. This, supposedly, was "very irregular". But, without any discussion or dissent in the White House, out shipped more missles. Only to cause a (slight) international fuss when they refueled in Scotland.

The saga continues............
 

Buick6

too punk to drunk
Freakaholic said:
this idea has been carefully avoided by all media outlets thus far. but it is still possible. however, i think the US-Israel relationship works differently. I think the US fights Israels proxy wars, not the other way around.

But then, there is the news, carefully released to the press on Saturday to avoid excessive attention, that Israel asked the US to speed up its delivery of missles. This, supposedly, was "very irregular". But, without any discussion or dissent in the White House, out shipped more missles. Only to cause a (slight) international fuss when they refueled in Scotland.

The saga continues............

While Iran and Syria load up Hizbullah.
 

Buick6

too punk to drunk
John Doe said:
An interesting perspective.

I wonder if he'd consider the millions of Jews murdered by the Nazis did not 'deserve' their freedom because they could not 'protect' it?

Well they weren't a state with a military or terrorist force so how could they, and who lifted a finger in the world community to assist them beside a handful of resistance fighters? The Irish - go on egghead jnrs find some 'facts' to prove me wrong.

Be mindful there were a few in 'Palestine' who gave up their comfortable European existences to pave the way, but you know all that.

But I know deep down there's a few of you, based on the logic and 'facts' of your posts that would have been happy if Hitler finished the job he started.
 
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Buick6 said:
Well they weren't a state with a military or terrorist force so how could they, and who lifted a finger in the world community to assist them beside a handful of resistance fighters? The Irish - go on egghead jnrs find some 'facts' to prove me wrong.

Resistance can only be undertaken by a state!? There were numerous Jewish groups - in the Warsaw ghetto, for instance - who violently resisted the Nazis (not to mention the countless state-less resistance movements throughout history, including the IRA in Ireland).

Be mindful there were a few in 'Palestine' who gave up their comfortable European existences to pave the way, but you know all that.

Pave what way? (To remove all Jews from Europe to 'Israel', as opposed to 'Palestine', that was the original Nazi plan, since being implemented by the Zionists themselves). You really have no clue as to what you are talking about


But I know deep down there's a few of you, based on the logic and 'facts' of your posts that would have been happy if Hitler finished the job he started.

You are the only one making such a claim (which tells us much about your true prejudices), not to mention that the Zionists are doing precisely that - finishing the exodus.
 

sherief

Generic Human
Buick6 said:
..and exactly how 'un powerful' are these enemies? They have millions more numbers, and if we talk about 'power' as all you do, numbers and 'majorities' will always have the upper hand.

'Those who cannot protect their freedom do not deserve it'
By Yair Ettinger http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=Yair&itemNo=743197

The worst kind of journalism is when you turn a political situation into a series of human interest stories. This is laudatory nonsense, excusing its own bias by placing much of the aggravating rhetoric in all-too transparent quotations.
 

D7_bohs

Well-known member
hundredmillionlifetimes said:
Resistance can only be undertaken by a state!? There were numerous Jewish groups - in the Warsaw ghetto, for instance - who violently resisted the Nazis (not to mention the countless state-less resistance movements throughout history, including the IRA in Ireland).



Rather embarassingly for the Provos attempt to taken seriously as a revolutionary force, they actually collaborated - or tried to - with the Nazis during what is referred to in Ireland as the 'Emergency', on the principle of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'
 
D7_bohs said:
hundredmillionlifetimes said:
Resistance can only be undertaken by a state!? There were numerous Jewish groups - in the Warsaw ghetto, for instance - who violently resisted the Nazis (not to mention the countless state-less resistance movements throughout history, including the IRA in Ireland).



Rather embarassingly for the Provos attempt to taken seriously as a revolutionary force, they actually collaborated - or tried to - with the Nazis during what is referred to in Ireland as the 'Emergency', on the principle of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'

Coincidentally, much of this is well detailed and portrayed in Robert Fisk's PhD (he studied at Trinity College Dublin), published in the mid-1980s as In Time of War: Ireland, Ulster and the Price of Neutrality, 1939-45, just before he moved permanently to Beirut. And then their were the artists and writers with German Idealism-derived sympathies for fascism - from Yeats to Francis Stuart (and not forgetting Lord Haw Haw on the radio).
 
Burning The Village In Order To Save It. Again.

How could the Palestinians be "genuine partners" in peace talks when they have no country? But how could they have a country when it was taken from them? The Palestinians were never given any choice other than unconditional surrender. All they were offered was death. In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the actions of the Israelis are considered legitimate retaliation (even if their attacks do seem disproportionate), whereas the actions of the Palestinians are without fail treated as terrorist crimes. And the death of a Palestinian has neither the same interest nor the same impact as the death of an Israeli.

Since 1969, Israel has unrelentingly bombed and strafed Southern Lebanon. Israel has explicitly said that its recent invasion of Lebanon was not in retaliation for the terrorist attack on Tel-Aviv (eleven terrorists against thirty thousand soldiers); on the contrary, it represents the culmination of a plan, one in a whole series of operations to be initiated at Israel's discretion. For a "final solution" to the Palestinian question, Israel can count on the almost unanimous complicity of other States (with various nuances and restrictions). A people without land, and without a State, the Palestinians are the spoilers of peace for everyone involved. If they have received economic and military aid from certain countries, it has been in vain. The Palestinians know what they are talking about when they say they are alone.

Palestinian militants are also saying that they have managed to pull off a kind of victory. Left behind in souther Lebanon were only resistance groups, which seem to have held up quite will under attack. the Israeli invasion, on the other hand, struck blindly at Palestinian refugees and Lebanese farmers, a poor population that lives off the land. Destruction of villiages and cities, and the massacre of innocent civilians have been confirmed. several sources indicate that cluster bombs were used. This population of Southern Lebanon, in perpetual exile, keeps leaving and coming back under Israeli military strikes that one is hard-pressed to distinguish from acts of terrorism. The latest hostilities have ousted more than 200,000 from their homes, now refugees wanderin the roads. The State of Israel is using in southern Lebanon the method which proved so effective in Galilee and elsewhere in 1948: it is "Palestinizing" Southern Lebanon.

Palestinian militants for the most part come from this population of refugees. Israel thinks it will defeat the militants by creating more refugees, thereby surely creating more terrorists.

It is not merely because we have a relationship with Lebanon that we say: Israel is massacring a fragile and complex country. There is something else. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a model that will determine how problems of terrorism will be dealth with elsewhere, even in Europe. the worldwide cooperation of States, and the worldwide organization of police and criminal proceedings, will necessarily lead to a classification extending to more and more people who will be considered virtual "terrorists." This situation os analogous to the Spanish Civil War, when Spain sereved as an experimental laboratory for a far more terrible future.

.......... Vietnamisation of Lebanon
lebanon%20map%20July%2012-25.jpg


Today Israel is conducting an experiment. It has invented a model of repression that, once adapted, will profit other countries. There is great continuity in Israeli politics. israel believes that the U.N. resolutions verbally condemning Israel in fact put it in the right. Israel has transformed the invitation to leave the occupied territories into the right to establish colonies there. It thinks sending an international peace-keeping force into Southern Lebanon is an excellent idea... provided that this force, in the place of Israeli forces, transforms the region into a police zone, a desert of security. This conflict is a curious kind of blackmail, from which the whole world will never escape unless we lobby for the Palestinians to be recognized for what they are: "genuine partners" in peace talks. They are indeed at war, in a war they did not choose.​

from Spoilers of Peace, Gilles Deleuze, Le Monde, April 7, 1978 [reprinted in Two Regimes of Madness (Semiotexte, 2006) ].
 
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