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Thread: This is an escalation without precedent in the terrorist war waged by...Hamas"

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    Default This is an escalation without precedent in the terrorist war waged by...Hamas"

    Israel eyes wider Gaza sweep (Reuters)

    Bah! Give me a break. I noticed there wasn't a thread up for the discussion of this horrific Israeli war of pretense. All I have to say is that as Israel keeps this up, as they attempt to strip any human attribute from the palestinians, they create people whose subjectivities are built entirely around resistance. As much as it seems grimly satisfying that they're creating the tools for their own destruction, I find this to be an unacceptable assault with a similarly unacceptable response from the "international community." The only possible objections are "humanitarian," which depoliticize the situation and skirt the fact that this "crisis" has a cause. Please pardon the rant, but i find myself visibly upset here...

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    I thought that collective punishment was against the Geneva Convention, or doesn't anyone care about that any more?
    One thing that struck me about the abduction of the soldier was a report that said he was lucky to survive being abducted as it is normal practice for Israelis soldiers to indiscriminately fire at the kidnappers in these circumstances - with the aim being to prevent anyone being captured at any cost including their death. Apparently the idea of an Israeli soldier being kidnapped, threatened with death and used as a bargaining chip is so demoralising to Israel it is better to just kill them in the first place. Has anyone else heard that? Does anyone else think it's completely weird?

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    It's completely absurd and disproportionate. However, when Guantanamo detainees kill themselves, apparently this too is an act of asymmetrical warfare. Once they've created a portrait of the other in this situation as an absolute enemy or as human beings who always have within them the potential to become terrorists, then it's alltogether to easy to kill any single one of those lives which themselves have no meaning and are always potentially of the enemy. However, in the case of a captured Israeli, we note how absolutely sacred his life becomes...

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    As much as it seems grimly satisfying that they're creating the tools for their own destruction

    Now why would you possibly want that Sherief?

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    A healthy respect for irony?

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    Well, there we are then. In the smouldering ruins of Tel Aviv, you can enjoy your irony.

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    or gaza city perhaps...?

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    Dont make me come back here Craner you troll!

    Let's look at casualties. In the last six months, approximately 80 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza due to Israel artillery firing. Now, on the Israeli side, we hear all of these terrible things about these Kassams. Even Shlomo Ben-Ami, yesterday on your program, who I respect, he said what's Israel to do about these Kassams? What does the record show? I mentioned a moment ago, 80 Palestinians killed in six months. There have been exactly eight Israelis killed in the last five years from the Kassam missiles. Again, we have a huge disproportion, a huge discrepancy.

    http://www.democracynow.org/article..../06/29/1420258
    "Ruins of Tel Aviv"?

    Pathetic even by your standards. Once again you defend violations of the most basic principles of international law.

    http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150612006

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/ap-report.html

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    It's bizarre, each side just seems to be antagonising the other as much as possible.
    What did the Palestinians expect to achieve from this kidnapping?
    And what do the Isrealis hope to achieve by bombing the shit out of them?

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    "What did the Palestinians expect to achieve from this kidnapping?"
    Strangely enough, apparently the Israelis are often prepared to deal when a soldier is held hostage so this is actually one of the few ways that can lead to the release of Palestinian prisoners (normally in ratios that greatly favour the Palestinians).

    And what do the Isrealis hope to achieve by bombing the shit out of them?
    You've got me there.

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    I suppose its important to keep 'Palestinians' and 'the kidnappers' separate in our heads, even if there seems to be support for these kind of actions.

    What most palestinians would like to achieve is a way out of poverty and violence, i expect (a lot like what the poorer israelis would like too) - and these seem to be the tactics available to them at the present time, now there's not much talk about socialism and mass movements to achieve things. What the Israeli government (spot my careful disinction - clever, uh?) wants to get out of bombing Palestinians, my cynical mind believes, is the prolonging of the intifada, to pull the Israeli population around a security policy that justifies the extreme centralisation of power.

    Anyone have any thoughts around Hamas as a 'terrorist' organisation now running the Palestinian state? They won in a landslide in the last elections, mostly because of the visible corruption of Arafat and his SUV-owning party comrades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doll steak
    I suppose its important to keep 'Palestinians' and 'the kidnappers' separate in our heads, even if there seems to be support for these kind of actions.

    What most palestinians would like to achieve is a way out of poverty and violence, i expect (a lot like what the poorer israelis would like too) - and these seem to be the tactics available to them at the present time, now there's not much talk about socialism and mass movements to achieve things. What the Israeli government (spot my careful disinction - clever, uh?) wants to get out of bombing Palestinians, my cynical mind believes, is the prolonging of the intifada, to pull the Israeli population around a security policy that justifies the extreme centralisation of power.

    Anyone have any thoughts around Hamas as a 'terrorist' organisation now running the Palestinian state? They won in a landslide in the last elections, mostly because of the visible corruption of Arafat and his SUV-owning party comrades.
    Yeah, I didn't really word my post that well.
    Although I do wonder how much support the kidnappers have from the average Palestinian.
    And how much power does Hamas really have? Are they "running" Palastine, or is their influence too fragmented for that?

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    'Kidnap' is a strange choice of words given the context. According to a 40 year, virtually unanimous international consensus as expressed through multiple UN resolutions, Israels continuing occupation of the territories constitutes a serious breach of International law, and therefore any resistance or action against occupying military forces is legitimate.

    'Capture' might be a more apt term.

    Very good article on current events and media coverage therof:

    http://www.medialens.org/alerts/index.php

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    I agree with usage of the word capture. I think that the reality of a military occupation and armed resistance movement really mitigates calling this incedent against a soldier terrorism or kidnapping even. That the Israeli government can still take recourse to the rhetoric of their own victimization and terrorization without anyone thinking critically about the matter is a near incomprable injustice.

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    Interesting. I suppose this is how the representation of terrorism functions - turns the Western capitalist aggressor into a victim of the desperate, doomed-to-failure non-strategy of the isolated opressed.

    Swears wrote: "And how much power does Hamas really have? Are they "running" Palastine, or is their influence too fragmented for that?"

    The PA has always been a client state, mostly of Isreal (about 60% of Palestinians have jobs in Israel - that's why border checks are such an issue) and about half the PA's funding comes from "aid" from US, UN, EU and Arab League. Still, though, this is the first time that a group arguing for tactics of small armed groups attacking what they consider the enemy has obtained state power - Arafat's Fatah party was much more about mass resistance (which included violent and non-violent actions. It will be interesting to see how this develops. As Fatah got corrupted by collaboration it lost its combatative edge but kept mass support because that's what its tactics mostly were - mass action. Hamas has never had this - this is why even the poular support it has is shaky - its based on the actions of a few individuals.
    Last edited by doll steak; 07-07-2006 at 10:16 PM.

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