Krautrock Bit Me In The Ass

Jazzbo

Member
Having recently bought Space Ritual by Hawkwind I was shocked to hear how krautrocky it sounded - or, just as likely, how much Hawkwind (and esp. Lemmy) had seemingly influenced the psych-hairy-rock side of Krautrock...

The first La Dusseldorf album, by Dinger and associates, IS the closest thing there ever was to the 4th Neu rec (moreso even than 'Dino' off the first Harmonia alb)

I'm afraid I'm rockist enough to prefer the 'canonical' Tang Dream recs (eg everything up to 'Phaedra') to their later Euro-'disco' albs: plus, 'Aqua' by Edgar Froese is def. the FIRST German realisation of 'Heroin House'
 

xero

was minusone
minusone said:
moebius' albums with conny plank & others (mani neumeier, gerd beerbohm, jurgen engler) which I absolutely love, epecially 'zero set' & 'en-route' Was anyone else doing stuff in this vein in the 80s?

Freemans' Crack in The Cosmic Egg said:
Not all of the Moebius & Plank projects have been so successful, unfortunately, as working with Mani Neumeier on ZERO SET strangely took the music too close to techno for comfort, as does the more recently issued EN ROUTE (an originally abandoned project) which is also similarly plagued.

Ha I obviously don't get the canonical here - but music from 1982 that is close to techno is surely at least as interesting as music from 1979 that mixes cosmic & dub?
 

owen

Well-known member
there's a sniffiness about the more synthy stuff isn't there....
(other dodgy new-age kraut stuff that is actually REALLY good- ashra! 'club cannibal' sounds like something off daft punk's 'discovery'.
I hope these tangerine dream solo LPs are good cos I shall hold you people personally responsible if I buy em and they all sound like Vangelis....
i like Phaedra loads more than the Edwin Pouncey nonsense of Electronic Meditation, but got some early 80s stuff and was not overly impressed. nonetheless the stuff Harmaplazt and Jazzbo are talking about sounds awfully tempting
 

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
Yeah, Crack in the Cosmic Egg have an huge blind spot when it comes to (proto) techno, it seems to underrate Göttschings E2-E4 in a somewhat similar way: "Nowadays it's amusing to note that, it has since become a benchmark of ambient and techno fans!"

Most revealing of all, though, is their take on DAF after Die Kleinen und die Bösen: "... on subsequent albums (which are much too crap to be listed here) the duo version of D-A-F went to do trendy Kraftwerk-like techno-electro and vocal music of little merit." What, of little merit? As great as the early DAF were (well, Die Kleinen und die Bösen at least, I haven't heard Produkt der...), it's nothing compard with the Alles ist Gut/Gold und Liebe/Für Immer-triology, some of the most influential records ever, groundbreaking in a way the Freemans simpley don't get at all.
 

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
owen said:
I hope these tangerine dream solo LPs are good cos I shall hold you people personally responsible if I buy em and they all sound like Vangelis....
Hm, well, Schulze and Schnitzler sound nothing like Vangelis I think, but you might as well hold me responsible anyway, because I actually like him! (shock horror!!!). Yeah sure, we all know and hate Chariots of Fire, and he have made some other crap in the same vein, but he have actually made huge amounts of very different music. There's some weird early jazz stuff (The Dragon and Hypothesis), there's some of the greatest and most freaked out instrumental prog records (Heaven and Hell and Albedo 0.39), and not least theres a lot of strange ambient records, from pseudo orchestral (Mask and Soil Festivities, the latter eventually being on my all time album top ten, such strange dreamlike rain music) to bizarre avant-electro (Beaubourg and Invisible Connections (released by Deutsche Grammofon no less)). Oh, and the Blade Runner-soundtrack.

owen said:
i like Phaedra loads more than the Edwin Pouncey nonsense of Electronic Meditation, but got some early 80s stuff and was not overly impressed.
Right on, Electronic Meditation is so overrated. I remember playing it to a friend who pointed out that it was basically a Pink Floyd rip off. I mean, it's nice and all, but it's not that different from so many other freak outs. As for the 80s, there's some agreement that that's when TD started to go bad. I do like the wonderfully synthetic plastic sound on records like White Eagle and Hyperborea, though.
 

francesco

Minerva Estassi
hamarplazt said:
Most revealing of all, though, is their take on DAF after Die Kleinen und die Bösen:"... on subsequent albums (which are much too crap to be listed here) the duo version of D-A-F went to do trendy Kraftwerk-like techno-electro.

The brothers gotta have the "KEENAN disease"! Just like David Keenan on Coil making ininteresting by format commercial techno stuff like "the snow" (which like every times Coil flirted with techno was not by number and very good). Technophobes!

:rolleyes: Late '70 TD is interesting, sure? Even "Cyclone"? caution... really, but who i am to tell since i own those:
TOP 3 "MASTERY OF MONEY (you gotta have a lotta to buy VCS3, ARP, etc....) ELECTRONIC 1975-79":
J M Jarre : oxigene
Tomita: the bermuda triangle
Vangelis: beaubourg
 
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owen

Well-known member
i bought 'ein produkt der...' a few years ago after hearing 'der mussolini' and thinking WOW, listened to it and found it a bit meh (lots of jamming, only this time without solos and more postpunk sounding, hence the kudos presumably), and exchanged it for 'fur immer'....and that was more like it.
heh but then i love that gigolo comp so my tastes here are a bit on the falco side ;)
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
hamarplazt said:
As great as the early DAF were, it's nothing compard with the Alles ist Gut/Gold und Liebe/Für Immer-triology

fi real. Gold Und Liebe is still magnificent.

But um Coil's techno didn't often do it for me -- I never could see why the Snow was supposed to be so good. Windowpane (which I have on autographed clear vinyl, somewhere) was alright but mainly for the video. And The Wheel / the Wheal was of course fantastic. But whole albums of noodly downtempo electronica just passed me by -- no character when compared with, say, Godhead <-> Deathead.

No, Coil was better when they were doing hardcore, as in their mix of NIN's Gave Up.
 

francesco

Minerva Estassi
2stepfan said:
But um Coil's techno didn't often do it for me -- -- no character when compared with, say, Godhead <-> Deathead.

Or Cathedral in Flames... I underrated Scatology, the second side is magnificent...

2stepfan said:
No, Coil was better when they were doing hardcore, as in their mix of NIN's Gave Up

Or "Closer to God" NIN remix (from the Main titles of "Seven")

To close one circle there is definitely a great influence of Krautrock in many of the last Coil records, a couple of tracks on Musick to play in the Dark 1 & 2 are heavy Tangerine Dream influenced, also many bits of Moon's Milk or Astral Disaster have a krautrock feeling.

Also NWW are obviously Krautrock influenced (no big surprise here, expecially if you know the infamous NWW list on the first album). Steven Stapleton United Diares once printed a very good Guru Guru lp of inedits and live versions (and also a Asmus Tietchen lp and some Anima, if memory help).

A great Krautrock album that's outside of the canon is the magnificent Annexus Quam "Osmose" , on Ohr no less, 1970. Avoid the second album, not bad but not so great.
 
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hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
francesco said:
Late '70 TD is interesting, sure? Even "Cyclone"?
They begin to repeat themselves towards the end of the 70s, as well as they try make more complex compositions with less improvisation/repetitive sequencer freakout. And that's not to their advantage. Tangram and Force Majeur have their moments, but I never really listen to them anymore. Cyclone is an odd one, much dissed by traditional TD fans because of the vocal tracks on side 1. A kind of heavy handed electronic prog that I actually find charming in a perverse way - something gone interestingly wrong. The long track on side 2 is more traditional 70s TD, and pretty decent if not among their very best.

francesco said:
but who i am to tell since i own those:
TOP 3 "MASTERY OF MONEY (you gotta have a lotta to buy VCS3, ARP, etc....) ELECTRONIC 1975-79":
J M Jarre : oxigene
Tomita: the bermuda triangle
Vangelis: beabeourg
Hey, Tomita. Got lots of his stuff, though not Bermuda Triangle. His first two (Snowflakes are Dancing (Debussy) and Pictures at an Exhibition) are classics, it's basically electronic orchestrations of piano music, but at the same time all moog grotesquery. What makes him great is that he usually have quite good taste in classical music, avoiding the obvious hits of so many classics-gone-synth records. On Cosmos he transforms the Star Wars theme to silly, fluffy cartoon music.

beabeourg - love that one, all bleeps and blurps and metallic clangs, and still soothing. Stockhausen in the womb.

As for Jarre, well, that's a whole different chapter. Few people realise, or want to admit, the impact this guy have actually had on the development of electronic music. Much, much more influential than anything ever coming from Detroit. This is where most of us started. He could be very cheesy, but so could the Prodigy.
 

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
2stepfan said:
But um Coil's techno didn't often do it for me -- I never could see why the Snow was supposed to be so good.
It's just kinda chill out trance, really. Not bad for that, but I'd rather go for the real thing, like System 7 or EBI or Optic Eye.

Recently got Time Machines and Worship the Glitch. Nothing particular either, decent drones and ambient and such. I really like Astral Disaster, though.
 

carlos

manos de piedra
the freeman brothers are indeed notorious techno-haters. throughout the book and their audion zine (aside from the excessive use of exclamation points) the most annoying thing is how they are always ranting about "trendy techno"

i still find the book to be very useful- especially for the pre-1975 material

one late TD album i always liked was "Live in Poland"- side 1 especially

i have a soft spot for Jarre just because i saw him do one of his over-the-top multimedia shows here in houston in 1986- celebrating 150 years of texas (of all things) - it was pompous and cheesy but still impressive
 

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
carlos said:
the freeman brothers are indeed notorious techno-haters. throughout the book and their audion zine (aside from the excessive use of exclamation points) the most annoying thing is how they are always ranting about "trendy techno"
Ironic, considering how they have helped krautrock getting much more trendy that techno ever was. Was techno ever "trendy" at all? As far as I remember it have allways been looked down upon.

But yes, very useful book.

carlos said:
i have a soft spot for Jarre just because i saw him do one of his over-the-top multimedia shows here in houston in 1986- celebrating 150 years of texas (of all things) - it was pompous and cheesy but still impressive
Ah, I remember forcing my parents to let me stay up late and watch the tv transmission of that. It blew my little mind, I had never seen or heard anything that futuristic. It put me on the path that eventually led me to rave and techno and electronica - I just knew I wanted something totally synthetic with lights and buzzers and sci fi imagery.
 

polystyle

Well-known member
A bite out of life ...

Hey Matt , hope you didn't pay so much for Dinger's Angels' ,
i'd seen some writeup that made it sound promising , thankfully i didn't bite / seek it out .

Some comments /observations so far

Peter Baumann : He was in the right place , right time with T Dream.
By the time i was able to meet up with him in 1984 , he was at a crossroads , living in NYC and he had up in his studio on E 23rd St. one of those custom mixing board that also had ossillators like a synth that Kraftwerk did so well with.
The board got my attention right off , more then the "Russians Are Coming" vinyl he pressed on me in an early meeting .
Anyway, we did get to work on the board and that went well
(basic tracks for '84's "The Dominatrix Sleeps Tonight" )
but the publishing deal Peter and his friend tried to get me to do didn't work out,
we went our own ways with Peter getting married ,moved to Conn. (?) and
starting Private Music , one of the early New Age label here in US.

Agitation Free : I keep reading good things about their records , now have rd more on this thread -
will have to finally check them .
I only came across M Hoenig (sorry if my spelling is shot , just drinking that first coffee now) around the same time in W Berlin ('83) when he got involved in sessions i was having with Malaria ' synth player Sushanna Kuhnke . Hoenig's horning in brought that project to a halt , unfortunately .
But he's done well in LA scoring those movies .

"Teutonik Disaster" Comp.'s on Gomma : Not sure these groups connect to 'Krautrock' per see ,
not cking sleeve notes this moment , but i don't think Conny P had a hand in any of them though.
There is some good stuff on there ...
Had never heard of Exkurs (they are on both vol.'s) but was glad to find them there ,
they reminded me of some characteristics of DAF .
Hats off to the Gomma boys for the hard work putting those together .

Tangerine Dream : Not familiar with all of their music ,
M Diekmann made me a Comp. of music from Phaedra ('74), Rubycon ('75) , Stratosfear ('76) that gets play from time to time , and almost every time it passes quickly and i enjoy it playing in the space ,
but the pieces do blur on me.
Whatever the taste, they remain and deserve to be influential for doing electronic music that early on .
It surely wasn't easy

DAF: No doubting the great records DAF did ,
and with Conny Plank producing the results is/was just awesome .
From "Kababtraume" to "Fur Immer" they made their own canon ,
retro & revivalists don't even try and struggle put to top the stripped down synth & drums attack of DAF in their prime. You can play alot of those tracks and they still sound great.

Chrislo and Beate's Liaisons Dangeruses slot right alongside DAF , but they shot off and quickly established their own sound. On cuts like "Kess Kill Fe Show" Conny P's harmonizer turns vocals into animal howl burbling against Chrislo's Oberheim dark end of the street German gothy synth constructions .

Out of the canon , i mention an odd record I did buy on impulse , based only on the writeup
(maybe same place Matt rd about der Angels) and that was The Nazgul Album ,
originally on Moat/Pyramid and rere'd on Psi Fi .
Recorded at Dieter Dierks by a crew of anonymous players , totally "Lord Of The Rings" influenced ,
sparse , open soundtrack -y Tibetan horns , ethnic perc. music .
Interesting in the ' they made this when ?' kind of way, but nonessential in terms of actually buying it (!)

What was Bowie singing in Station to Station , 'The European Cannon is here ...' ?
He certainly took the canon to heart/mind/his records , back in that day .

Another German group , in between trends and without canon was Belfegore ...
anyone catch them ? some pretty good songs on that Album, as i recall Conny P produced.

And as noted previously , the early Der Plan, Pyrolator releases were essential in their time .
We loved those records , so fresh for then !
 

carlos

manos de piedra
polystyle des said:
Another German group , in between trends and without canon was Belfegore ...
anyone catch them ? some pretty good songs on that Album, as i recall Conny P produced.

i had one of their albums (cassette actually)- they got some mtv airplay back then. they always reminded me of killing joke- which conny p also produced

as a side note- i think the synths on killing joke albums were what got me searching for more electronic music!
 

Loki

Well-known member
Interesting how far the Krautrock genre can be stretched; never thought of DAF as Krautrock as such (not even the first album) still...it's hardly surprising that most of it is a little crap because most of <em>any</em> genre is a little crap. The interesting, innovative music in any genre (punk, techno, country, minimalism etc etc) is almost always surpassed many times over by mindless copying and dulled vision. Even the good Krautrock bands - Can, Faust etc - aren't consistently good, or even interesting (and these have a better hit rate than most of the others). In fact, if there is a consistently good genre out there I'd love to know...

And as for the bitching about the Coil techno stuff...I'll admit the Snow is a bit uninspired but the rest of the techno period stuff still stands up and it still gets to the core of the psychedelic sensibility (i.e. drugs are fun and fun of goblins) better than anything else....

You should, on the other hand, have a go at the dear departed Balance for inspiring all those comedy jesters hats at Glastonbury...
 

polystyle

Well-known member
Loki said:
Interesting how far the Krautrock genre can be stretched; never thought of DAF as Krautrock as such (not even the first album)

I hear you on that Loki
I wouldn't include DAF in 'Kraut Rock' either , but that was the flow of the thread .
They would be in another grouping , perhaps 'New Deutsch Wave'
The name 'Kraut Rock' itself is off - putting , kept me off the music for years ...
Cheers all
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
francesco said:
Or Cathedral in Flames... I underrated Scatology, the second side is magnificent...
Hey, I typed that and then chose Godhead! {twilightzonetheme} Scatology's probably my second favourite after How to destroy angels...


Or "Closer to God" NIN remix (from the Main titles of "Seven")
Tune. But no Danny Hyde I think... hence not as impeccably funky as the original mix, which I love...


To close one circle there is definitely a great influence of Krautrock in many of the last Coil records
Oh yeah. That really came out.
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
hamarplazt said:
It's just kinda chill out trance, really. Not bad for that, but I'd rather go for the real thing, like System 7 or EBI or Optic Eye.
Yeah, lets hear it for Hillage! In fact I think it's time for a "prog techno it's OK to like" thread, starting with Orbital.
 

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
2stepfan said:
Yeah, lets hear it for Hillage! In fact I think it's time for a "prog techno it's OK to like" thread, starting with Orbital.
The greatness of Orbital, or at least most of what they did, is hardly controversial - they just shouldn't have made all those collaborations with vocalists.

Much more problematic is... Future Sound of London!!! The great prog-tech bogey of Energy Flash: "It's a Daliesque frightmare of liquifacent forms, a pseudo-organic sample-scape congested with scrofulous sound-tendrils and slithery slime-shapes". If that isn't a recommendation I don't know what is.

Bur seriously, Lifeforms, ISDN and Dead Cities were all extremely messy and uneven. You'll have to go through a lot of pointless nature sound collages to get to the good stuff. However, when they do get it right, they can be highly fascinating. Lifeforms is a lot like Tales from Topographic Oceans in that way, somehow worth the effort simply by including some stuff sounding like absolutely nothing else.

Accelerator is something completely different. Warm glowing acidic techno, and one of those rare techno albums that really work as an album. Maybe even better than LFOs Frequencies.
 
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