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Thread: the hardcore continuum

  1. #16
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    My jaw is dropping...how can you listen to 'down on me' or 'sincere' and not hear jungle ghosting away all over them. Ever heard any Tom & Jerry? Or Nookie, or Peshay...

    2-step wasn't jungle slowed down to garage tempo, it was something new, an evolution out of jungle and a synthesis of different sources, like US r&b, MAW, MK, blah blah blah. Certain elements and tropes that were maybe less prominient in jungle seemed to find more promience in the garage/2-step structure and culture, and some things were buried just below the surface (like the odder, darkcore influences...but only for so long, then the weird garage of m-dubs and agent x fought its way to the surface again and off we go towards grime and dubstep).

    There were definitely people in garage who were not key players in jungle but so what - thats the whole point, it was a different form, but one strongly connected to jungle.

    The thing as well with dubstep...if you ask people what influenced them, what they listened to - irrespective of what you think it sounds like now - the tempa/hatcha/kode 9/dark swing branch of dubstep did not emerge out of breaks. I'd be surprised if a lot of dubstep producers had ever heard of half those breaks guys you mention, let alone been influenced by them.
    Last edited by Logos; 15-10-2006 at 11:44 PM.

  2. #17
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    Jungle was the spedup breaks of US hiphop/funk, the amen, the apache, the funky drummer. An altogether distictly UK evolution of the breakbeat continuum combined with the double timed ragga samples of dancehall. The tradition of the breaksteppas combined that with 2step/garage but mostly ditched the ragga stuff although resurrected to sublime effect in aquasky vs masterblasters later stuff with the ragga twins. The breaks in nuskool was in the worst cases slowed down d'n'b even now with breakfastaz and autobots you can hear that but it is still breakbeat culture. 2step was an altogether different beat and more influenced by US r'n'b, club culture and cafe muzak with a particular emphasis on the more soulful side of things. I suppose I can hear a comparison with the liquid styles of d'n'b but jungle to 2step to grime/dubstep is quite a leap that can't be abridged without the breaksteppas and garage MC's hence the continuum progresses.

    Of course you'd be hard pressed to find influence of breaks in the halfstep crew of which tempa/hatcha and kode9 represent but it's the fullsteppas like the storming camp and even SLT mob, darqwan, MRK1, toasty and boxcutter that would be foolish to deny influence especially when it's so in your face. In saying that the halfstep which now dominates the dubstep scene predominantly excludes the breakstep influence if you'd listen to blackdown tell the story despite a crying out for more step and less dub that can only be sated by the crossover of dubstep/breakstep in labels like hotflush.

    Look to new influences from freq nasty, combat, rag n bone and the nu skool/breakstep crew to reinfuse dubstep and take it back to fullstepping not to the converted d'n'b massive despite their tenuous links to early 90's jungle and the easy conversion of d'n'b to halfstep. Baobinga as skins on the 'Our Sound' destructive/pitch black album is a portent of hopefully things to come. Theyd be better served following that path than the well plodden path of rennie pilgrem, adam freeland and meat katie towards breakbeat oblivion and the inevitable house trained sets for the established clubs. Although from what i can gather, that's where the money is at.

    IMHO

    But I still want to hear more about a global evolution of the electronica virus, nonlocality, contemporaneous evolution and in dubstep I'd like to hear interviews with DJ abstract and goldspot about their stuff circe early 00's.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by the undisputed truth View Post
    2step was an altogether different beat and more influenced by US r'n'b, club culture and cafe muzak with a particular emphasis on the more soulful side of things. I suppose I can hear a comparison with the liquid styles of d'n'b but jungle to 2step to grime/dubstep is quite a leap that can't be abridged without the breaksteppas and garage MC's hence the continuum progresses.
    You obviously listened to fuck all 2-step then.

    IMHO

    Anyway I pretty much disagree with everything you said!

  4. #19
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    heheh...I'm glad you disagree with me. It's so boring when everyone agrees with everyone. You only have to look at the dubstepforum to see the danger in that.
    So give me 3 jungle and 2step songs which best exemplify your unique persepective on the natural progression of the continuum from jungle to 2 step.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by polz View Post
    The way i see it the nuum started with hardcore and ended with dnb. I didn't like were dnb went either. But to me this nuum idea is something which life got unjustly prolonged by former ravers/junglists, who didn't like where drum and bass was going, so they invented the idea that 2step, and later grime and dubstep were the real heirs of jungle. It seems like people just list all the styles they like (hardcore, jungle, 2step, grime, dubstep) and leave out everything they dislike. That's fine, it just doesnt seem like a solid theory to me
    It looks to me like the really 'continuous' continuum is ardkore - jungle - drum and bass. Beyond that the branchings and movements of people, sounds, and infuence seems to get sufficiently complex that trying to impose a model that is basically a linear development of a sound with maybe branches for grime and dubstep gets a bit overly reductionist...

  6. #21
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    ardkore>>jungle>>drum n bass>>nu skool breaks>>breakstep>>dubstep ??

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    You obviously listened to fuck all 2-step then.
    You can't pick out a continuous progression from jungle to 2-step though, like you could with ardkore and jungle. Was the term originally coined to include 2-step, or was it coined after jungle and subsequently extended? The jump into garage seems more like an infection or a hijack than part of a continuum...

  8. #23
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    Actually, yeah, ardkore as a virus. It infects otherwise quite straightforward genres (particularly those with intrinsic popishness, 'urbanness' and dancefloor-centricism[1]) and sends them into a period of flux and contradiction and creativity from which they eventually settle down into one or more stable and 'dead' forms, at which point the virus moves on to the next host. Watch out funky house.

    Although if this theory is actually worth developing I'm guessing that Kode9 already got there with considerably more subtlety.

    [1] although this leaves you wondering, as someone did upthread, how far speed garage would have gone by itself without the junglist influx - to what extent was the influx a cause of garage's musical development and to what extent was it an effect of the intrinsic potential of the mix of sounds... sorry, I'm thinking out loud here...

  9. #24
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    when you read these posts out loud, is 'nuum pronounced "Nyew Um" ?

  10. #25
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    I say 'nuum' like numb. Only I extend it to sound like a buddhist chant 'om mani padme numb'.
    From the sounds of it and on the surface the 'nuum' has little to do with 'sonic warfare', kode9's pet theory.
    I think funky house is immune. Having been exposed to so many viral infections from other genres, it has built up it's defences and is now beyond ordinary malaise.

  11. #26
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    Five junglist 2-step toons:

    Zed Bias - Neighbourhood
    Cleptomaniacs - All I Do (Bump & Flex Dancehall Dub)
    London Dodgers - Down Down Biznizz
    Vincent J Alvis - Body Killin'
    James Lavonz - Mash Up Da Venue

    That's just the tip of the iceberg, how is this even an issue...

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim F View Post
    That's just the tip of the iceberg, how is this even an issue...
    Your point being ?

  13. #28
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    Jonny L produced Victoria Beckham's 2step single
    Hackney Soldiers were Ratpack or SUAD (or someone like that)
    Teebone was a jungle producer.
    Marvelous Cain switched to 2step
    Skibadee did 2step tracks
    Remarc had a big garage hit
    there were countless rumours about all sorts of dnb producers making garage under pseudonyms. I think its clearly relfected in the music - in the production and even more so the MCing.
    from the very beginning, speed garage tracks like double 99 "ripgroove" had a strong jungle influence.

    I can see a clear connection between jungle and 2step. what I can't see is how anyone can posit nu skool breaks as the main intermediary between jungle and dubstep. it just doesn't any make sense at all

  14. #29
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    If undisputed wants to argue for an infusion of nu-skool breaks and breakstep influence into the current dubstep sound, then sure, go head, b/c the thing is, the evidence will be forthcoming, i.e., we will see if it happens or not. Pretty simple, that. It either will or it won't. Can't say that I imagine it happening anytime soon . . . .

    As for undisputed's earlier championing of the breaks and breakstep side, okay, yes, Skinnz tune "Corner" from the Our Sound LP was decent, but hardly definitive (!) - I saw Dave Q draw for it last November in the basement of Rothko going b2b with Joe Nice the night after Kode 9 played (he didn't mix into it though, had to kill a Mystikz tune with the start/stop switch but hey, fair play) and it sounded pretty darned good, as I recall. Regarding Rag & Bone, can't say that I've followed the releases this year, but earlier, the Babylon EP by Noyeahno had about one good tune on it ("I've killed a lot of people"), Warlock's "Full Tilt" was a decent little banger. On the breakstep or "underground breaks" tip (remember that term, anyone, anyone?), certainly the Toasty releases on Hot Flush as well as the S&D (HF 03) and Slaughter Mob (HF03) were really splendid tracks; I really liked the Slaughter Mob vs. Search and Destroy tunes on Halo Beats 01 as well.

    But that wasn't where the scene was headed . . . what I don't understand about undisputed's posts on this thread is the attempt to re-write the whole 'ardkore continuum in order to delete 2-step and garage in favor of nu-skool breaks. As Logos and Tim F have pointed out, you won't find many sympathizers for that view on dissensus. It is a very, very idiosyncratic view, I would think. Don't forget, two and three years ago people were talking about *grime* in relation to the ardkore continuum - see Woebot's old posts on 'UK Bounce' and the discussions in the dissensus archives where dubstep was still referred to as "the forward>> sound"!

    Anyway. Two more painfully obvious references. Steve Gurley. If ever there was a more direct link. Also: no mention of 138 Trek yet?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by the undisputed truth View Post
    Your point being ?
    What's your point, mate? You requested some tunes that "...best exemplify [the] natural progression of the continuum from jungle to 2 step." From what you've posted in this thread it's clear to even me that you're pointlessly pontificating without the knowledge to back it up.

    I mean:
    ardkore>>jungle>>drum n bass>>nu skool breaks>>breakstep>>dubstep ??

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