tox

Factory Girl
If there were more 2step sounding stuff presently around within dubstep apart from Burial I might think different but sadly there isn't.

Have you listened to The Roots of Dubstep? Check out that or United Vibes own Dubstep history mix and you might change your mind. There's piles of Dubstep that has an obvious 2-step connection.

I don't think anyone's trying to say there aren't any influences on Dubstep outside of those from the "hardcore continuum", but surely that's where its roots are. Infact I think to argue otherwise is just to be contrary for the fun of it. Listen to some Kode 9 sets from '03 through to now, read Martin Clark's blog and I'm almost certain you'll come round to agree with the rest of the majority of the board on this one. I mean half of the tracks on Roots of Dubstep could even be Broken Beat, which is quite clearly born straight out of the sexy 2-step you speak of.

Still, it is dissensus so it's all cool.

(sorry, this isn't supposed to be as patronising as it sounds...)
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
This argument is a familiar one, as its as much about the culture surrounding the tunes as the music itself- you probably could get to 80% of dubstep musically thru non-2step routes, but culturally in terms of its promotion and fanbase and style of clubs its pure post-garage.

John Eden: "It's good to have something to aspire to... but I think there is a danger in carting off the surface elements (samples, calling yourself a "soundsystem", patois titles for tunes etc) and not actually immersing yourself in the complexities of what the 80s reggae scene was actually like. Similarly all these bands who are retro- post-punk have all the angular guitars but none of the politics, or appreciation for other scenes. Where is the 2006 version of early On-U Sound? Or "Metal Box"?"

Sound words. I think in both cases you have to transpose what those genres were doing in the context of their times to the current context of today, if one had the ambition to be their equal. Too often dubstep (in a very similar way to nu-postpunk indie as you rightly pointed out) uses a series of signifiers as mere styling. I know there are some on this board who love the clash between the way they are sposed to indicate "authenticity" and their inherently plasticy nature (with the exception of DMZ themselves) but it does all ring a bit false at times. Its why all this "nu-rave" rubbish is so utterly redundant- of course a REAL NU RAVE movement, which occupied the same space in terms of aesthetic and subculture as the original but for our 2006 would be superb, but what you've got is lame post modernism.
 

Logos

Ghosts of my life
This argument is a familiar one, as its as much about the culture surrounding the tunes as the music itself- you probably could get to 80% of dubstep musically thru non-2step routes, but culturally in terms of its promotion and fanbase and style of clubs its pure post-garage.

Yes - thats what I was trying to say earlier on without much success. Don't work backwards from now and making assumptions because of surface similarities, pay attention to the actual genealogy of a sound.

Anyway cool debate.
 

swears

preppy-kei
So the hardcore continuum would exclude anything a) not London-centric and b)with no links to reggae and it's soundsystem culture at all? So something like, say, The Chemical Brothers don't fit in because even though they're probably influenced by their fair share of hardcore, they're still too studenty and techy (I'm reluctant to say white 'cause of producers like MJ Cole) to fit into this definition?
 

Logos

Ghosts of my life
Colour isn't really the issue, especially with jungle...lots of white garage producers as well.

Also a lot of key movers in jungle were suburban and outside London - Essex, Leicester, Ipswich etc. But there is a London-centricity in there definitely, thats how I've always thought about it.
 

swears

preppy-kei
That's why I was reluctant to say it...although you get the feeling that by '99 UK dance had split into the "whiteness" of trance and the "blackness" of 2step.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Surely the Chemical Bros are an offshoot of the hardcore continuum, but their use of Rock-centric means of distribution and organisation (ie albums, proper tours, festivals) puts them outside of its locus.
 
Have you listened to The Roots of Dubstep? There's piles of Dubstep that has an obvious 2-step connection...
... Listen to some Kode 9 sets from '03 through to now, read Martin Clark's blog and I'm almost certain you'll come round to agree with the rest of the majority of the board on this one.

Since we're partially derailed I may as well crash a train into the rear end and have right ol smash up.;)

I thrashed kode9's sets since the beginning of the hyperdub site and from when he had his samurai inspired website.I have heard the roots of dubstep, (my mate has most of them on original vinyl) and read blackdowns blogs/columns. Despite Martin Clarks one man opinion on his roots for dubstep and his wikipedia definition excluding the breakstep crew from dubstep proper and a consensus among many afficiandos that it should be there. I'm still not hearing much 2step in current dubstep not even in his own music or kode9's. Or how could one possibly ignore what people like sticky and oxide were doing in redefining the bass and minimalism in their trax. Sans vocals it has all the characteristics of the hardest darkest most stripped back garage which led onto dubstep replete with 2 step beats. But alas I'm afraid another distinction needs to be made for proto-grime. Even Darqwan is conspicuous by his absence in discussing the roots of dubstep considering he mentored MRK1 :rolleyes:

If DMZ define the dubstep sound with the half step beat and reggae leanings then perhaps it's roots would also better lie in bashment and ragga. Funnily enough I've read that Loefah comes from a jungle background, Mala from house. I havent read much of anything about Coki but there is more than a hint of dread to imply rasta.

With that in mind perhaps you can offer up some contemporary dubstep with 2step beats to support your position and better define for me the difference between 2step and garage ?

Ammunition certainly have a lot to answer for don't they ? Not only with the breakstep crossover of the early FWD sound but also their many imprints which do not follow a linear progression :D Also with regards to dubstep DJ Abstract in San Fran and Goldspot in NY were paralleling protodubstep. That in itself it destroys the myth of dubstep being a strictly UK/london progression of the hardcore continuum.

What I think this exercise shows is that there really is no linear continuum unless you follow a particular beat, in which case I choose the breakbeat as opposed to the 2 step stutter. This thread also highlights why I'm interested in parallel evolution and non locality as it touches on the contemporaneous evolving of polynesian reggae. At the same time as JA influenced the UK so too did it effect New Zealand and polynesia. I think thats the affinity built up by DMZ with fat freddies when they supported their tour to the UK earlier this year and led on to the rmx of cays crays.

Hopefully that will lead on to more collabs or vocal remixes as like kode9 alludes. If it doesnt incorporate vocals dubstep may become a brief soujourn down a cul de sac and stop the 'nuum dead in it's tracks.
 

Logos

Ghosts of my life
If you want to hear 2-step influences in recent tunes take your pick - Kode 9 beats like the Fat Larry's remix, Curious; Mala's Stuck, Bury da Bwoy, New Life Baby Paris, Left Leg Out; Coki's Haunted, every early Benga and Skream beat ever, Sream's Affekz...the list goes on.

Is doesn't have to sound like it now to have come from there.

Also isolated counterexamples do not necesarily invalidate a hypothesis.
 
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Also isolated counterexamples do not necesarily invalidate a hypothesis.
Sure it does. It's called falsification. Ok theres a bit of step in those tunes but still more in the halfstep, brokenbeat and slowed down bashment vein than mainline 2step. I don't know if I made it clear earlier but I did and do still listen to 2step and garage. I love the stuff. I'm saddened by its demise and can follow the progression from garage to dubstep just as easily as I can and did from madchester>>hardcore/bigbeat>>jungle>>d'n'b>>nu skool>>breakstep>>dubstep from a strictly UK perspective. Surely though you are not denying the influence of breakbeat to dubstep ? If not, then it merely becomes a question of percentages and contribution. A hard thing to quantify and qualify. Zed bias in his many guises was in my opinion more of a success as a breaksteppa than a 2steppa. I hear more breakstep influence in dubstep presently than 2step. Lets just agree to disagree and move on if you disagree.

Moving on then could somebody please set me straight on the difference between 2step and garage ?

john eden said:
I'm not denying that soundsystem culture and reggae have been a huge influence, but I think there is a discussion to be had about respect and crediting that influence vs ripping off.
Sounds like a great discussion in waiting, worthy of it's own thread. Gotta be mindful of that whole race thing though. In the meantime.

I don't see why reggae should feel aggrieved for dubstep not acknowledging it's bass heavy soundsystem precedence and using the odd snippet of vocals. That, if anything is more of a nod to the ethics of the 'nuum using samples in the form of chopped up breakbeats, the doubletime ragga of jungle and the chest rattling low end theory of dub culture. No one can deny the afro-caribean influence and I see it as a continuance of the fine tradition espoused in piracy. Loot, pillage, burn, shut up and dance already. Didn't reggae do likewise with its versioning of rock n roll ? By all means school the youngers but we shouldn't make them feel guilty for being ignorant or white or poor or black or from NZ or whatever.:rolleyes:
 

Tim F

Well-known member
If you're not really into 2-step, it's not surprising that you think Zed Bias was more successful as a breakstepper than as a 2-stepper - but this is only from the skewed perspective of someone who is willing to dismiss MJ Cole and Wookie entirely for making "cafe" 2-step (whatever that means). Fact is, Cole and Wookie made some of the heaviest grooves you'll hear: Wookie's "Down On Me" alone is more influential on dubstep than just about any breakbeat track ever, and Cole's dubs of his two big hits are amazingly raucous, evil-sounding numbers (he went even harder later on but I think 2000 was the last time he didn't sound like he was trying to keep up with trends).

As for Bias, well, yeah "Ring The Alarm" is amazing, but it's also one of the barest handful of "breakbeat garage"/"breakstep" tracks that was actually genuinely great. Ironically I'd say the best producers of garage using breakbeats were The Wideboys, probably among the most unashamedly populist, cheesy producers on the scene. Certainly a zillion times better than Darqwan, who never made a decent track after "Nocturnal", and whose only other really great tracks were all 2-step not breakbeat tracks ("Biggin' Up The Massive", "Brand Nu Flava" etc.)

(likewise DJ Abstract incidentally - best track by a million miles is his girly track "Touch")
 
I guess my beef about MJ cole and wookie was the straight 2step remix work they undertook for everybody and anybody. It demeaned UKgarage, making the genre more about about the remix than the actual core sound. Not denying though that sincere is a fine album which even now stands as a classic amongst 2step albums but alot of his remix work was pure cheddar, likewise for wookie. Heaven forbid if dubstep became a remix style and producers released more remixes of other artists than original music and that music became the mainstay of the cafe set. Inoffensive background beats to sip a latte too.

I can't remember but I think Zed bias was the breaksteppa. His alter egos, phuturistix and maddslinky were more 2step and experimental jazz fusion or maybe it was daluq ? Supafine still gets me going. But anyway he is often mentioned as a breakbeat garage (read breakstep) producer so as godfather of dubstep, who can then deny the influence of breakbeat. ? As far as i know wookie or MJ cole never made a breakbeat tune are the 2 producers most representative of the 2step sound but yet no direct lineage to dubstep.

I wouldn't count Oris Jay out yet either and maybe you didnt but i was and still am feeling said the spider, metro, raisin kane and even Rob one seven hits the spot with it's rolling snares.Maybe the nu dark breaks style swing infusion has begun already. I'd just like to say Thank fuck for ammunition in all their guises.

Perhaps Tim you could differentiate garage from 2step for me ?
 

Blackdown

nexKeysound
Me too - more so when I saw that pen and ink drawing from Sleazenation Martin put up on blackdown.

i havent seen any of pete frame's stuff that i can think of (um, erm, tho is it in OMM sometimes?) but the intention with the Roots artwork was to update the Sleeze Nation diagram. took aaaages to do.
 

qwerty south

no use for a witticism
my understanding is that it originates with kool herc / bambaataa breaks and some breaks that were 'discovered' later by ultramagnetic mcs? (funky drummer), 2 live crew (amen), rob base and ez rock (think), marley marl? (hot pants / gimme some more). hardcore grew out of hip hop (sirens from public enemy etc).

liam howlett is still the uk's top hip hop producer in my umble...

big beat / breaks has always struck me as hip hop for people who don't like rapping.
 
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muser

Well-known member
havnt read through this thread but in regards to the theory;


hardcore->jungle->DnB->2step->Grime/dubstep

It's a UK thing like Reggae is Jamaican. Yeah, there's tons of non-Jamaican reggae, but it wouldn't exist without Jamaica.


it just isnt that simple.
 

bassnation

the abyss
Surely the Chemical Bros are an offshoot of the hardcore continuum, but their use of Rock-centric means of distribution and organisation (ie albums, proper tours, festivals) puts them outside of its locus.

but how does this fit with the prodigy? you could say the same things about them in regard to rock tours etc but its also impossible to argue they aren't (or weren't) part of the hardcore continuum.

i think the rave sound has spread far beyond its direct descendents. i was listening to some pop music on radio 1 earlier and reflecting that the sounds and textures they used would have sounded alien 15 years ago. now they are common currency. its been subliminally and unconciously absorbed into mainstream culture. this is hardly suprising when you think about the sheer numbers of people who attended illegal raves back in the day. it changed everything.
 
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If only it were that simple muser.

my understanding is that it originates with kool herc / bambaataa breaks and some breaks that were 'discovered' later by ultramagnetic mcs? (funky drummer), 2 live crew (amen), rob base and ez rock (think), marley marl? (hot pants / gimme some more). hardcore grew out of hip hop (sirens from public enemy etc).

While I can see where you're coming from, the 'hardcore continuum' in the UK precludes discussion of wider influences like early german electronica, italo disco, american hiphop and the detroit/chicago twin strands of house and techno. As mentioned earlier. The closest genre that might have some relevence within the limitations of the 'nuum, with the earliest reference points in electronica and hiphop, yet still remain within the UK, would probably be hiphouse and the sampladelica of bomb the bass and coldcut.

polz said:
is it about sound or about culture?

If culture might we please limit it to breakbeat culture and the common values of those producers who participated in it. The wider ethnic based cultural context can often lead to race based arguments. I feel no one is ready to deal with that at this point nor is there a need to. That one might be better suited to the reggae owes me money thread I hope John Eden starts. There we might discuss the cultural melee that is the black atlantic., but count me out cos that is some deep shit that flows right over my head. Still I d love to hear some of the brighter heads go at it and further my understanding.


One thing though in regard to this
gek opel said:
This argument is a familiar one, as its as much about the culture surrounding the tunes as the music itself- you probably could get to 80% of dubstep musically thru non-2step routes, culturally in terms of its promotion and fanbase and style of clubs its pure post-garage.
and this
polz said:
It either is about the genealogy of sound, and then breakstep, breakz etc, cant be ignored. Otherwise it's about culture in terms of its promotion and fanbase.

How is there a difference in the promotion and fanbase of garage as opposed to breaks if it is still based on UK dubplate and club culture given that neither of those fully utilised the promotion or accessed the fanbase via the net in the way that dubstep has embraced it ? Post millenial dubstep being possibly the first new electronica genre to do this and thus redefining the culture beyond localised geographically based scenes.

Normally this type of discussion, where we attempt to trace lineage and evolution tends to take place from a point in the future with the benefit of hindsight and retrospection. With the 'nuum though and it still being in continuance the lines and dots are still being drawn and haven't been fully connected enough to see the pattern. Makes for great navel gazing though.

On a related note I've just been reading about "double refraction" as mentioned in the Dan Sicko book about the evolution of techno, Techno rebels but is referenced from another book by Jon Savage and his book Englands dreaming:anarchy, sexpistols, punk rock and beyond. Double refraction becomes essential to understanding the sometimes nonlinear evolution of dance music. It refers to the process by which music is passed and copied back and forth between cultures.

Which again brings up the question of non locality and parallel evolution. I feel i should take a breath here and apologise here for my abhorrent punctuation and grammar. They really aren't my strong points. I write like I speak and expect the dynamic interaction afforded by natural conversation. :eek:
 

Gabba Flamenco Crossover

High Sierra Skullfuck
So the hardcore continuum would exclude anything a) not London-centric and b)with no links to reggae and it's soundsystem culture at all?

Good call swears. Conceptions of the 'nuum have been warped by too much london-centric writing - much as I love Reynolds, I have to say that his riff on 'a few square miles of east London' is absurd. Hardcore didn't just retreat back into the capital after it's chart pop era. To use just one example, Kinetic in Stoke-On-Trent was firing right through 93-94, booking exactly the same DJs as places like Labrynth, and thier local residents like Pilgrim & Ned Ryder were playing the same darkside and proto-jungle as the London DJs. Stu Allen in particular is an absolutely crucial figure in the development of UK hardcore, who's been practicallly written out of the story because he isn't from London. The only part of the hardcore spectrum that was exclusive to London in 93-94 was booyaka ragga jungle, which was pretty niche and shortlived even in the capital. The style which had lasting influence was darkside/artcore, which was less clunky in deploying the Black Atlantic influence and less suspicious of Belgian bombast, and that evolved on a national level (which is why a good number of the artcore originators, such as Photek & Doc Scott, are from outside London).

There's another, much larger hardcore continuum in the UK which rarely gets written about because it's outside the capital - white, provincial and working/lower middle class, whose route out of rave took them into happy hardcore and gabba, then on into techstep, acid tekno and breaks: everything starts with a 'B' basically, and the B stands for Beltram. These are the kind of people you get at free parties - not part of the London 'nuum, but definitely not BoBos, or students (in the pejorative way that the word is used in classic 'nuum theory). There is a black atlantic influence, but refracted through northern/provincial prole culture: so the free party scene has memes, like sound system politics & clashes with Babylon (not theoretical ones either!), that citizens of JA or black British culture would recognise; and others that they would most probably find totally alien, such as standing off your head in a muddy field. Jungle's evolution into techstep, bemoaned by 'nuumians like Reynolds & Woebot, can be seen as a re-appropriation of hardcore by it's original provincial audience, many of whom were bitter at what thay saw as the hijack of 'their' scene by black or black-aligned london producers.

I suppose a lot of writers would argue that they prefer to deal with the London 'nuum because it's constantly changing, compared to the provincial 'nuum which is largely static. That's true, but beware of the feedback loop: if it's true that writers focus on London street music because it's turnover of styles is higher, it's also true that London music recycles itself so often because it gets so much media attention! Provincial scenes don't have the underground-vs-hipster-vs-mainstream internal strife that characterises movements like jungle or grime, and which cause them to mutate - left to thier own devices, producers in fields like acid tekno or happy hardcore have no impetus to develop the music once it's reached it's perfect functional zenith. This compromises it aesthetically, but the converse is that many of the groundbreaking records feted by london-centric commentators don't satisfy as dance music in the same way, because developing the style means moving it away from the functional.

Even within London, scenes aren't faithful to any one set of influences - Undisputed has a point, because some of the early tempa releases are very breaks-y & I can distinctly remember DMZ being marketed as a breaks night in 2004. Apple records started out as a techno shop and had no real truck with jungle at all (there was a shortlived d&b shop upstairs in '95 but it didnt take off - Wax City was the shop for jungle in Croydon BITD). Producers generally are into all kinds of wierd stuff that doesnt immediately find it's way into thier work. So IMO, tracing the geneology of the 'nuum musically will just result in hairsplitting and tail-chasing - look instead at the cultural impact and the audience demographic, and ask why some shifts in the sound get accepted while others fall on stoney ground.

There, hope that's thoroughly confused everyone :D
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
^ top post.

two points i've made before:

coventry was the centre of hardcore/jungle (specifically the eclipse) for a while- probably during its most important period (see: doc scott)

2-step/ bassline house are still massive up here, but with the nova-owning underclass, so rarely gets a mention. particularly as leeds is all glamourous house.

frankly, i don't mind the london-centric discourse as it lets the rest of the country 'av it ;)
 
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