the hardcore continuum

Grievous Angel

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
Good post but I think that saying "The only part of the hardcore spectrum that was exclusive to London in 93-94 was booyaka ragga jungle, which was pretty niche and shortlived even in the capital" is quite wrong. It was a vast movement, all over London, all over the country actually.
 
swears

swears

preppy-kei
Just a question sort of related to all of this:
Wasn't "2step" originally used as a term to describe that style of drum 'n' bass that emerged in the mid-nineties that relied on programmed drum patterns (like Reece's Pulp Fiction) rather than sampled breaks like the amen? Then later on it got applied to the sort of stuff we would call 2step that came out 99-01.
 
G

Gabba Flamenco Crossover

High Sierra Skullfuck
Cheers D84, nice to know someone's reading! :)

2stepfan said:
Good post but I think that saying "The only part of the hardcore spectrum that was exclusive to London in 93-94 was booyaka ragga jungle, which was pretty niche and shortlived even in the capital" is quite wrong. It was a vast movement, all over London, all over the country actually.
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That's not really how I remember it in the north west, where I lived in 1993/4. The London DJs who were getting booked up there (Grooverider, Hype, Kenny Ken, Mickey Finn) were playing the odd tracks with a clear ragga influence, but no-one was rocking wall-to-wall ragga-jungle and a lot of DJs wouldnt play any of it at all. The ruling sound was a mishmash of darkside, early artcore and back-to-92 upfront stuff that would break off into happy eventually (usually all in the same set, which was thrilling!).

People like Brockie, who I guess you'd associate with the London ragga sound, had no profile nationally. I only started hearing Brockie on pirate when I moved to London in spring '95 and by then the sound had moved on again (to hip hop & RnB samples). Speaking to friends who grew up here, it seems that the whole ragga jungle thing was regarded as pretty tiresome by the suburban ravers who made up the bulk of the London hardcore demographic.

I don't doubt that it was a big deal in inner London circles, and significant in turning a lot of afro-carribean youth onto rave, but to call it a 'vast movement', in the context of the hardcore nation as a whole, is overstating the case a bit I think.

That's not to deny that there was a massive reggae/dub influence at work in darkside generally - I'm only talking about the very obviously ragga-influenced stuff like 'Incredible', etc.
 
P

Precious Cuts

Well-known member
define for me the difference between 2step and garage ?
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I think you need a little help on this one.

Garage refers to exactly what garage is and has always been: soulful house. Here is a huge garage anthem from 98 that was battered by EZ.

http://www.yousendit.com/download/zSL+Gj0cwLg=

2step UK garage, on the other hand introduced a two step break, jungle influences, rnb influences:

http://www.yousendit.com/download/eG0INNZBoxM=

The 2step sound had the poppy material like Artful Dodger, but also a harder strain centered around labels like Social Circles (zed bias, sticky) which later developed into dubstep, and breakstep:

http://download.yousendit.com/29C267B20F4A7B8C

A good place to start if you know nothing about garage is to find Zed Bias: Sound of the Pirates Vol One. then maybe you will realize why trying to label Zed Bias as primarily a breakstep producer is straight nonsense.

http://www.yousendit.com/download/eG3aIlOMwLg=

In the summer of 2000 "Casualty" came out and launched the So Solid gangster garage thing. It was a big deal at the time. The UK Garage committee got together and banned any DJ from playing it at the notting hill carnival because it wasn't proper garage.

The groups you call garage like so solid are only really called garage for lack of a better word. If you view that as the center of what garage means, then you're going to have a skewed perspective, cause its so far off from what garage is about that people were calling it garage rap, or refer to it now as proto-grime. it has more in common with 2 step than it does with proper garage.
 
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Slothrop

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Precious Cuts said:
In the summer of 2000 "Casualty" came out and launched the So Solid gangster garage thing. It was a big deal at the time. The UK Garage committee got together and banned any DJ from playing it at the notting hill carnival because it wasn't proper garage.
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But in doing so, were they inspired by the Jungle Committee 'banning' Incredible, or by some sort of Breaks Committee?
 
T

the undisputed truth

Banned
A1 post Gabba. Thanx for that.

2stepfan said:
You literally do not know what you're talking about.
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A D minus for you 2stepfan. With a name like that i'd expect a little more.

Cheers Precious cuts. Heres a mix I did a while back of some of my favourites. What of this is UKG and what is 2step ? :D

Obi Project - Baby Can I? (Get Your Number)
Artful Dodger - Re Rewind
Oxide & Neutrino - Bound 4 Da Reload (Casualty)
Lonyo - Garage Girls (Tung N Groov Mix)
Sticky feat. Lady Dynamite - Boo
Sunship feat. Anita Kelsey - try me out (let me mix)
B15 project - girls like us
Mis-Teeq - One Night Stand (Agent X Dub Mix)
So Solid Crew - 05 - Envy (They Don't Know Voc)
Amar feat MC Ranking - Sometimes It Snows In April
Daniel Bedingfield - Gotta Get Thru This (DnD Vocal)
The Underdog Project - Summer Jam (B15 Project Remix)
Kool & the Gang - Ladies night (2step mix)
Baby D versus Trick Or Treat - Let Me Be Your Fantasy
Salt N Pepper - Push It (2step Remix) - Untitled
Truesteppers/so solid - Booooo! (feat. Neutrino)
Jaheim - Just In Case (Dubaholics Roller's Revival)
Mellowtrax - Outta Space (DeeKline Remix)

theres plenty more where that came from too and a whole shitload of electronica from the 80's to now on a hard drive somewhere.

Heres my zed bias folder by no means definitive. Notice the breakbeat connections and if you're familiar with the tunes most of the remixes are what I would call breakstep and like I said his other aliases were more about 2step but it is hard to draw lines between personas and styles though. Defining the early FWD sound depends i suppose on whether you think breakstep was UKG/2step with nu skool influence or nu skool with UKG/2step influence. Mostly people talk of Zed Bais as a breakbeat garage producer so I 'd say it was more breaks with garage stylings than the other way around.

zed bias\standard hoodlum - zed bias.mp3
crazy - zed bias.mp3
down - zed bias.mp3
funktion - zed bias.mp3
heavy weight - zed bias.mp3
hide you - kosheen - zed bias.mp3
matrix - zed bias.mp3
Maxim_-_Scheming_(Zed_Bias_Remix).mp3
Ms Dynamite - It Takes More (Zed Bias Vocal Mix).mp3
Naughty_-_Pussy_Trak_(Zed_Bias_Remix).mp3
ring the alarm - zed bias.mp3
Architechs_feat_Nana_-_Body_Groove_(Zed_Bias_Dub_Mix).mp3
super sharp shooter - zed bias.mp3
The Streets - Has It Come To This (Zed Bias Remix).mp3
The Streets - Let's Push Things Forward (Zed Bias Dub Mix).mp3
Zed_Bias_-_Neighbourhood.mp3

All I know is what i lived and heard. I got to dubstep just as much by following through from nu skool to breakstep as i did by UKG and 2 step. I don't understand how nu skool gets the bad rap. Tipper and Uberzone are the mantises. Some of the funkiest, techiest shit ever and much preferable than a lot of sterile techstep/d'n'b, boring halfstep, cheesy 2step remixes and just about any house sub genre you want to mention. Heres what i'm talking about. Tipper's stonking nu skool take on Afrika Bam's planet rock. Surely you can hear the continuum in this.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=15B0B0QL
 
F

ford.anglia

Member
Logos said:
Also a lot of key movers in jungle were suburban and outside London - Essex, Leicester, Ipswich etc. But there is a London-centricity in there definitely, thats how I've always thought about it.
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Completely agree but from what I remember from my years living down there and talking to people who grew up there those places ouside central London which produced the most significant hardcore/early jungle producers (Essex, South Hertfordshire, High Wycombe etc) were all within the broadcasting range of black London radio whether the pre-house Pirates (JFM, Solar etc), post88 pirates, or just Rodigan (on Capital)), Robbie Vincent (on Radio London) or even Black Londoners back in the 70s.
Growing up in these areas black music (including a lot of reggae) was what you heard as you were out and about and was the music of white working class youth too so its no wonder that it had such a large influence when some of the listeners started making music.
London was the only area with a black population large enough (from possibly as far back as the 60s) to permeate a whole areas popular (youth) culture to such an extent that it became the culture.
 
T

the undisputed truth

Banned
It's not salt n pepper. It's a so solid connection courtesy of Mr shabz with a funky little breakbeat kicking it along in fine garage style .

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IPLJ68XK ;)

but this 'nuum thing just gets worse. Not only is it now strictly UK but londoncentric as well. No wonder London wants to hold onto the dubstep thing as well as it fits quite nicely into it. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but even more so than now I'm just not buying it.
 
T

the undisputed truth

Banned
^yeah, i would. It's got a rolling and swung snare pattern in true breakbeat style and chopped breaks all through it. If you listen to the intro beat it's a classic breakstep thing as is the bass in the breakdown but what about the keyboard skank toward the end ? Crazy, quirky shit. I just love it to bits.

All this hairsplitting on genres does nothing but make for great debate. I'm waiting for someone to drag out the old its all subjective and let the music speak for itself line. Thats like the musical equivalent of Godwins law. I might even put it up on wikipedia as 'the dissensus law' cos as soon as it is invoked it basically kills all musical debate dead and makes anyones opinion irrelevent subject to personal taste and experience.

About this nu skool stuff though surely you can hear the 'nuum in this remix by arguably the best in the business at the mo, Lawgiverz and Future Funk Squad. Gotta love them names even. I have no idea where they're from except somewhere in the British isles. The MCing in it is the shit. How can you not love this ?

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=6A6QVK9O

or this, same group with post rave, psy trance elements and Terrence McKenna ufo mushroom samples , but check that bleep and bassline out. The drop is the absolute wickedness.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2FV1HCJN

enjoy, even if I don't know what i'm on about now :D
 
T

Tim F

Well-known member
So any 2-step track which chops up the beat is a breakstep track?!?!

For me "breakstep" means breakbeaty tracks played in the garage scene and at garage tempos that don't really have that post-Timbaland 2-step swing to them. They can still be syncopated and funky (think that little drum kit falling down the stairs clatter in "138 Trek") but they don't have the almost unnatural jitteryness of the 2-step beat.

There were heaps of very typical 2-step tracks which used breakbeats or chopped up programmed beats to make what was otherwise a typical 2-step groove. The dub of N&G's "Liferide" (and you won't find a more stereotypical 2-step track) built its rhythm out of an Amen in '99.

There's stuff which is very much on the borderline, and I think Zed Bias's use of breakbeats circa 2001 exemplified this: the way that "Ring The Alarm" has that "is it 2-step or not?" feel. See also the way that he dragged "138 Trek" back into garage land on his remix of it (conversely, Zinc's remix of "Ring The Alarm" turned it into a straight breakstep track). (another great borderline track from Bias was his remix of El-B's "Serious").

Likewise Wookie and Jammin' remixing eachother's "Back Up" and "Kinda Funky" - same basic groove but you can hear the difference b/w 2-step and breakbeat in the jitteriness (or lack of it) of the beats.
 
T

Tim F

Well-known member
Also, yeah, Bias is considered a godfather of 2-step for his 2-step tracks from 99/00 etc. alongside peeps like Steve Gurley, El-B and Dem 2... <i>not</i> his subsequent breakbeat investigations.
 
N

notrub225

New member
If there were more 2step sounding stuff presently around within dubstep apart from Burial I might think different but sadly there isn't.
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have you heard anything before 2003? I dunno, i don't think that was that long ago. the halfstep thing is on its way out anyway.
 
D

DigitalDjigit

Honky Tonk Woman
the undisputed truth said:
but this 'nuum thing just gets worse. Not only is it now strictly UK but londoncentric as well. No wonder London wants to hold onto the dubstep thing as well as it fits quite nicely into it. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but even more so than now I'm just not buying it.
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Not buying into what? It's just a name for a certain slice of music that philosophically and esthetically pleases certain music critics. The fact that it came from the same place and can be roughly traced genealogically from one point to the next gives it coherency.

It's like the blues. What is the blues?
 
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