Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 121

Thread: the hardcore continuum

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    795

    Default the hardcore continuum

    What is it ? Is there an absolute definition of it ? Is it strictly a UK thing ?

  2. #2

    Default

    hardcore->jungle->DnB->2step->Grime/dubstep

    It's a UK thing like Reggae is Jamaican. Yeah, there's tons of non-Jamaican reggae, but it wouldn't exist without Jamaica.

    You know this anyway. Are you trying to make some kind of point?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by polz View Post
    Also, dubstep to me seems to have as much ties with things like digidub and (nu-skool) breakz as with 2 step. And finally, what about bigbeat and triphop.
    Sounding like them in retrospect doesn't really mean anything...if you pay attention to the actual flow of ideas, the club nights, the record shops, early careers of main players you can see (e.g.) that dubstep is largely an evolution out of the jungle/garage context.

  4. #4

    Default

    It's a rough sketch, not the Gospel. You'd end up with every genre under the sun if you were looking at all influences / directions / cul de sacs. You should probably include Speed Garage, Happy Hardcore, Belgian Hardcore etc etc

    Maybe we should get Pete Frame on the job?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Reading (A rotten town)
    Posts
    2,130

    Default

    I was reminded of Pete Frame's rock family trees recently when looking at the rather excellent insert included with "The Roots Of Dubstep" compilation...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by polz View Post
    if this is the criterion, i don't think you really can make the step from dnb to 2step. I know garage was played were jungle was played, and that some garage producers did some dnb productions in their youth, but the flow you are talking about was from dnb to techno, and from house to garage to 2step
    Not true. There was a big influx of - and this is important - not just producers (usually on the lower rungs of the jungle ladder) but ravers into garage after 95/96.

    It was only when house - which was/is effectively a static medium by the standards of UK music - got appropriated by the currents which nurtured jungle that 2-step could emerge so rapidly. Its not gospel, as Rosco points out, but neither is it about linear development at the expense of cross-fertilization. Do you really think we would have 2-step without jungle?
    Last edited by Logos; 15-10-2006 at 06:52 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gek-opel View Post
    I was reminded of Pete Frame's rock family trees recently when looking at the rather excellent insert included with "The Roots Of Dubstep" compilation...
    Me too - more so when I saw that pen and ink drawing from Sleazenation Martin put up on blackdown.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    795

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    but neither is it about linear development at the expense of cross-fertilization. Do you really think we would have 2-step without jungle?
    That's what i wanted to touch on. I've seen the 'nuum' mentioned a bit around here and referenced just recently in the Kode9 interview @the redbull academy. Of course not by kode himself. Only I've never really understood what it was and where it came from, who coined the term and whether it was a linear progression, a direct evolutionary procession type of thing from one genre of UK electronica to the next or whether it's wider global definition included stuff like kraftwerk, detroit/chicago techno, NY miami electro, JA dancehall ? Or if it being strictly a UK thing if it even had a global equivalent ?

    For what it's worth, I do think the genre known as UKgarage would have evolved without jungle as the prototypical garage sound which grew out of the US had already developed the twitchy stutter of 2 step before making its way across the Atlantic and had little to do with the double time ragga and sped up hiphop inspired jungle which was in full effect, morphing into the hardshuffle of d'n'b. To my mind UKG had more to do with local soul and r'n'b, which by way of crossfertilization with US r'n'b in the form of remixes sped up the demise of 2step. As UKG became cheesier and more pop orientated it garnered the inevitable underground backlash against all things mainstream and commercial setting the scene for the darker strains of grime and dubstep to emerge.

    I was more interested though in seeing or hearing if anyone knows of anyone or had applied some sort of evolutionary theory to global electronica, allowing for stuff like non locality and contemporaneous evolution and could point me in directions worthy of further exploration.

    nonlocality being defined by wikipedia- A physical theory is said to exhibit nonlocality if, in that theory, it is not possible to treat widely separated systems as independent.

    contemporaneous evolution also from wikipedia being - Parallel evolution is the independent evolution of similar traits, starting from a similar ancestral condition. Frequently this is the situation in more closely related lineages, where several species respond to similar challenges in a similar way...



    In particular how that fits with Dubstep and it's mutated strains of a musical virus tag with reference to the "ammunition" flowchart highlighted by Blackdown.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    8,060

    Default

    Surely London pirate radio is the centrepiece to any discussion about the hardcore continuum? eg Wiley etc moving from playing jungle to garage to grime, but all the time being linked to similar (the same?) radio stations?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    604

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by the undisputed truth View Post
    I've seen the 'nuum' mentioned a bit around here and referenced just recently in the Kode9 interview @the redbull academy.
    But Kode 9 said perfectly clearly in the red bull interview that the 'hardcore continuum' emerged when acid house collided with afro-carribean music in the UK. He didn't put a date on it, but if you would like one, Simon Reynolds' tome Generation Ecstasy is the locus classicus for any discussion. A veritable year-by-year, genre-by-genre account, beginning in the late 80s, of the continuum's unfolding.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    795

    Default

    Kode9 says a lot of stuff about a lot of things which dont mean what they seem. I find i need more than a grain of salt when listening to or reading his works. Thanks for the pointer to the Reynolds book though. So it was he who defined the term then ? I'll hunt it out at the library.

    Is the UK continuum then the equivalent of US hiphop culture ? The acid house meets afro-caribbean thing seems to parallel the genesis of hiphop starting with it's funk meets JA soundsystem culture clash in Kool Herc and seminal electronica meets afro-centrism in Afrika Bam's soulsonic assault.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    604

    Default

    @ undisputed. I should probably add that Mr. Reynolds' book also appeared under the title Energy Flash. Generation Ecstasy was the title of a US reprint by Routledge (perhaps it was printed elsewhere under the title, I have no idea). But yes, I can't really recommend the book highly enough, esp for this discussion.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    417

    Default

    2-step was so jungle it hurt! There was clearly a US influence but thats why it was something new - it incorporated what was happening around it.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,075

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    2-step was so jungle it hurt!
    Certainly more jungle than the dnb at the time

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    795

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by polz View Post
    if that's the case, than funky house is the latest installment of the nuum, not dubstep. And indeed, i rather listen to JME's tropical stuff than read Kode 9 pseudo deep ramblings.
    I'd still say dubstep but more from the tradition of nu skool, breakstep and glitchcore via pioneers like si begg, tipper, early botchit and fuel. As d'n'b's influence waned the nu skoolers took up the charge with crews like mechanoise adopting the shut up and dance mentality of pillage, loot and burn. Also quests cyberfunk with mad props to Oris Jay and then on to the dubstep full noise brigade like toasty, boxcutter, search and destroy , protocol X, elemental, luke envoy with more props going out to warlock at rag n bone and stormfield at combat for keeping their eyes on the prize.

    I still fail to see the 2 step jungle connection ? How does one compare sonically the works of wookie and MJ cole to congo natty and suburban base ? I can see the parallels in the MC led stuff with skibadee and neutrino but i always tended to make the distinction between 2 step and UKG in much the same way as I now do with dubstep and grime.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •