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Thread: The wave function

  1. #16
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    Must.. resist.. urge to engage... with misuse of terminology!

    Quote Originally Posted by the undisputed truth View Post

    Back to the wave function though. If you close your eyes there is only the blackness. Nothing exists in the way you percieve. Everything is reduced to being OFF ie in another state of the multiverse, dead. Imagine objects merely being vibrations of fundamental particles having no discernable shape, form or substance. The matrix vision of neo. All possibilites existing just needing recombining and interpreting.

    Open your eyes and the wave function collapses. Everything takes the form your consciousness projects onto the 4d reality. Things take shape and have substance according to what we percieve through conditioning and experience.

    What would be cool then is to rather than collapse the wave, blow it up. Everything is ON. The wave becomes a standing one. Time becomes meaningless. We see beyond the 4d veil and control the shape of the background rather that it controlling us.
    .
    Closing your eyes does not re-establish a wave function from particles. For starters, the rest of your senses are still getting information from the "particle" world. But more importantly, the wave function is an objective description. All the many other observers have already cause its collapse.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by the undisputed truth View Post
    Everything is ON. The wave becomes a standing one. Time becomes meaningless. We see beyond the 4d veil and control the shape of the background rather that it controlling us.
    Thats what the white-out was like (Shulgin described it as singularity - I wouldn't be so bold) except there was no control, because there was no anything or distinction or self... there was only the field. Arguing theres something to control reminds me of a monk saying "as long as you have will you are not free". No voice either. That would have been OTT.

    Quote Originally Posted by the undisputed truth View Post
    Imagine if everybody experienced a whiteout at the same time.
    Was chatting to a guy I've met who used to be into the acid house scene in the UK. At some of the parties he went to there would be thousands of people and they would white-out together. Seems like a big part of where the spiritual idealism/naivete of the rave scene came from?

    Its not The Ultimate State of Being or anything silly like that, because we live in the blessed mundane, and no matter how many times I push the button in my brain to blow up the world, it always comes back. More or less.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tryptych View Post
    Must.. resist.. urge to engage... with misuse of terminology!



    Closing your eyes does not re-establish a wave function from particles. For starters, the rest of your senses are still getting information from the "particle" world. But more importantly, the wave function is an objective description. All the many other observers have already cause its collapse.
    can't ..resist.. must ..engage..must re interpret terminology

    I'm just simplifying things for the masses. Of course the many other observers have caused a collapse that's the consensus conscious opinion that bounds reality. The moment everyone recognizes the emeperor is naked is when the collective collapse causes a new reality to be adopted en masse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the undisputed truth View Post
    The moment everyone recognizes the emeperor is naked is when the collective collapse causes a new reality to be adopted en masse.
    This will never happen until there is widespread understanding of myth. Until then its people mistaking the map for the territory and supplanting one myth for another.

  5. #20
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    An expanded consciousness (through meditation, drugs, etc) can occupy more points in the ocean of infinite space/time/whatever. It's like a bigger fishing net, so to speak. Ego and prejudice is the dark, gummy matter that clogs the recepticles.

    So don't look down on the latin influence in various musics, Mr. Undisputed Truth!

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tryptych View Post
    Must.. resist.. urge to engage... with misuse of terminology!
    Urge succumbed to!

    Firstly, in what way does the future exist now? infinite possibilities for the future exist now, this is true, but not the future itself, that's kind of the definition of the term "now". And though over the entire course of time, we obviously spend a lot more time dead than alive, at present, we are wholly alive.

    Second, wave functions only have practical significance at the nano level or at extremely high energy levels (ie, the speed of light) which beings of such high mass as ourselves will essentially never achieve. Consequently, it is only in extremely contrived situations such as Schrodinger's cat box that macro-level entities can become so strongly affected by an individual particle's waveform (in this case, the cat being both alive and dead)...I just spent an enjoyable half-hour reading the rather excellent wikipedia article on Schrodinger's cat. Fave line: "...since "observation" has been shown by experiment to have nothing to do with consciousness - or at the very least, any traditional definition of consciousness - most conjecture along these lines probably falls under the "interesting but physically irrelevant" category." ha!

    General point though (and they talk about this in that article too), is that all the quantum wave function effects are really only interesting at the quantum level, and so don't really play that large a role in our own conscious experience of the world, except in a few very specific situations.



    lastly, undisputed, have you read Greg Egan's Permutation City? I think you'd like it, it plays with some similar ideas, the infinite variety of universes possibly in existence and how the mind could exist/play within them...

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by turtles View Post
    lastly, undisputed, have you read Greg Egan's Permutation City? I think you'd like it, it plays with some similar ideas, the infinite variety of universes possibly in existence and how the mind could exist/play within them...
    Greg Egan is the man. His work is some of the most provocative SF I've read (along with PKD of course).

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by turtles View Post
    Urge succumbed to!


    have you read Greg Egan's Permutation City?
    No, I'll hunt it down and read it, cheers.

    What prompted this post was the notion of things not being present, time out of joint, ghosts, particularly in the machine and memories of the future now. All bound up in the films of Alex Proyas. The Crow, Dark city and I robot. It was while watching Dark city again that i figured using machines to expand the wave function with the collective consciousness to stop time, rewind it and recreate present is probable.

    As soon as someone proves consciousness exists at the quantum level we can get on with the business of effecting the 4d construct. Thought powered nanomachines anybody ?

    Our future doesn't exist yet. Nothing does, but an extrapolation of choices and choices not made at every moment in time recreates presents in other universes. In some of those, what will happen to us is happening now or has happened. The point is, everything is NOW and you are here.

    If the fundamental particles which constitute us flicker at superluminal speed between existence and non existence as defined by the 4d construct. We are equally as much dead as alive but more so dead given that we are but one universe of many in infinte time.
    Assuming of course our particular conscious entity transcends the multiverse.

    I read Alex Proyas has had a film in the making for a while called The Knowing. It's about predictions of the future that came true and a particularly nasty one which hasn't. The trick then is to stop it but can you ?

  9. #24
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    How can anything have no cause and no effect? There is only one possible future and it is as set in stone as the past.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy
    How can anything have no cause and no effect?
    don't know what you mean here maybe you can rephrase ?

    There is no physical future or past. Everything is happening now and now and now and now. The present is in a constant state of recreating itself at faster than light speed using the same particles, but for every action chosen and taken there is an equal and oppsite in another universe. The past is a memory and deja vu could be a glimpse of a future probablity or a transdimensional leak where it is happening now but wont happen in this universe for a while. I wonder if there is a unit of consciousness, a thought particle ?

    On another tnagent though. If ghosts are no longer governed by earthly pressures of class, race, prejudice, hunger shelter etc then their notion of selfhood would be so far removed from the person they used to be in 4d.

    Someone should do an interview with one.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleep View Post
    Was chatting to a guy I've met who used to be into the acid house scene in the UK. At some of the parties he went to there would be thousands of people and they would white-out together. Seems like a big part of where the spiritual idealism/naivete of the rave scene came from?
    Being part of a similar scene time before - we all worked towards cataylsing that change on the dancefloor - Pressure Drop - the music / lights / decor / droping from same source at the same time. Often people spiced up the show, interpreting it, going numinious or ego-naked on peak. This often resulted in having too restrain casulties in the afternoon light, and by then it felt a bit like losing the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, or having held beauty with dirty hands. Although that didnt stop us chasing after it to 'know' if 'it' would happen next time...
    Quote Originally Posted by the undisputed truth View Post
    In collapsing, the wave affect other waves inducing them to collapse or combine to form bigger waves.
    Does observing as a knowlegable witness, rather than an reacting interpreter maintain the collapsed wave and 'Everything is now and You are here' expeirence?

    here's a video made by my little cus'. Its all about "it" and its "is'nis":
    www.theremembering.co.uk/
    --
    0me
    Last edited by ome; 27-10-2006 at 12:38 PM.

  12. #27
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    Your cus is on it. Liked that a lot. Love the cyclicity of it. Remembering, forgetting just so you can remember again. One time he'll remember without the drugs but the cycle will still continue cos you can't handle knowing all the time so you have to take the drugs to forget just so you can remember again when you're straight. Red pill or blue pill ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ome
    Does observing as a knowlegable witness, rather than an reacting interpreter maintain the collapsed wave and 'Everything is now and You are here' expeirence?
    It doesnt with me cos we are always trapped in the medium. Maybe with a critical mass of knowing observers it can... ie more people collapsing their waves simultanouesly with conscious effort tuned to effect the 4d continuum like the ballheads in Dark city and amplified by a cunning bit of kit. One person on their own cant do much unless you're Neo or John Murdoch or Muad'dib from Dune.

  13. #28
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    Came across this guy, F David Peat and thought he resonates quite nicely with a lot of stuff on here.

    Non-locality in Nature and Cognition

    David Bohm and his co-workers have demonstrated how it is possible to develop a quantum physics of non-separability using an underlying local mathematics. Bohm's curious quantum potential is determined by the wave function for the whole system, ideally by the wave function for the entire universe. It acts on a quantum particle in such a way that its effect is not determined by the size of the potential but rather by its form. But this means that distant objects can still exert a strong effect on the particle--in essence the motion of the particle is determined by the whole experimental situation including the orientations of quite distant objects.

    In this sense the behavior of each part of the system is determined by the whole...


    his whole site and other essays are worth checking out too like this one

    Time, Synchronicity and Evolution

    It is the condition of life in a modern, industrial world that we so often experience a sense of isolation and dislocation from the natural world and those around us. If we ask for meaning we are told that meaning has become a relative thing, an affliction of post-modernism. And, should we turn to science for comfort, it is to be told that life is no more than an accident spawned on a planet orbiting a relatively unimportant star within a contingent and meaningless universe....

    I suppose he'd qualify as a digital mystic.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by turtles View Post
    Urge succumbed to!

    Firstly, in what way does the future exist now? infinite possibilities for the future exist now, this is true, but not the future itself, that's kind of the definition of the term "now". And though over the entire course of time, we obviously spend a lot more time dead than alive, at present, we are wholly alive.

    Second, wave functions only have practical significance at the nano level or at extremely high energy levels (ie, the speed of light) which beings of such high mass as ourselves will essentially never achieve. Consequently, it is only in extremely contrived situations such as Schrodinger's cat box that macro-level entities can become so strongly affected by an individual particle's waveform (in this case, the cat being both alive and dead)...I just spent an enjoyable half-hour reading the rather excellent wikipedia article on Schrodinger's cat. Fave line: "...since "observation" has been shown by experiment to have nothing to do with consciousness - or at the very least, any traditional definition of consciousness - most conjecture along these lines probably falls under the "interesting but physically irrelevant" category." ha!

    General point though (and they talk about this in that article too), is that all the quantum wave function effects are really only interesting at the quantum level, and so don't really play that large a role in our own conscious experience of the world, except in a few very specific situations.



    lastly, undisputed, have you read Greg Egan's Permutation City? I think you'd like it, it plays with some similar ideas, the infinite variety of universes possibly in existence and how the mind could exist/play within them...
    always fun when someone who hasnt got a clue slips on someone elses mashed trip ejaculate and tries to set them straight. no, youve got the science a ittle wrong, this wont do. terminology matters. if you really want to set your brain on fire you should read this great sci-fi paperback by greg egan. now thats a trip.

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