Iran and the Holocaust Deniers

gek-opel said:

To answer Craner the Holocaust is the pre-eminent icon of genocide, the one that combines the most horrifying level of moral deliberateness with a pretty large scale. But there are lots of comparable events which either have smaller numbers, (Turkish massacre of Armenians) or a more ad hoc implementation approach (Rwanda anyone?) or less intentionality (Leopold II's forced labour programmes in the Congo estimated death toll of ten million). How are we to measure the weight of these things, and to what purpose? Whilst it is fair to say that the victims and relations of victims of genocide deserve whatever reparations are possible, two interesting points arise as to: The specific Jewish groups that have harnessed the moral horror created by the Jewish Holocaust, and as to why other ethnic groups associated with other comparable slaughter have not done so.

Click to expand...

There always appears to be a double movement, a doubly inscribed deadlock in discussions of the Holocaust: having been raised to the status of the Ultimate Trauma, to the level of the properly metaphysical diabolical evil, all attempts to historically contextualise it, to politicize it, are immediately judged as a denial of its singularity, as indeed anti-Semitic, the questioning or denying of its sacred position then equated with being a "holocaust-denier."

And it is because of its status as untouchable fact, as depoliticised total radical evil, that it is so easily and cynically manipulated by BOTH sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, among others: isn't it those who repeatedly compare current conflicts with the holocaust who are exploiting it, instrumentalizing it for self-defeating, opportunistic political uses? On the one hand, "the very need to evoke holocaust in defense of the Israeli acts secretly implies that Israel is committing such horrible crimes that only the absolute trump-card of holocaust can redeem them," and on the other hand, evoking the holocaust for purposes of condemning Israel’s policies towards the Palestinians, that Zionist actions have been comparable to Nazi actions towards Jews, or the equally farcical contention that “what Nazis were doing to the Jews, the Jews are now doing to Palestinians.”

Thanks Hundred Million Lifetimes, that is PRECISELY the problem. The deadlock created can surely only be resolved by viewing it entirely within the broader context, instead of some kind of rupturing of reality into purest evil, (ie- outside of any other point of reference). Then part of what is discursively occurring when the cries of anti-semitism fly at the mere suggestion of contextualisation is an attempt to maintain it as this rupture, rather than as a point in continuum of intersections between colonialism and genocide which began some time in the 17thc (say) and continue into the present day.

No, sorry, I don't think so. I'm glad you guys have been gorging Norman Finkelstein, that's fine, I've read him too. But don't be fools. This isn't exactly quantitative or qualitative analysis. I know all about Rwanda, probably too much; it was the first event, aged 15 I think, to get me politically engaged. I want Madame Agathe kicked out of Paris and all that, it's here, so fuck you.

The fact is THE KILLING RATE WAS FASTER THAN THE NAZIS IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME.

Fact is too, the Nazi's attempt to exterminate European Jewry was UNIQUELY ambitious and sucessful and in the background of historical anti-semitism, which had pan-national support from France to the Middle East in the 30s and before and after and everywhere, was more important and dangerous and appalling and destrutive, and still exists like a virus.

I'm sorry, but anti-Tutsi sentiment just does not have the same scope or virulence, unless you disagree.

oliver craner said:

This isn't exactly quantative or qualitative analysis.

Click to expand...

Which you then proceed to do, sort of!

I would need to do more research to see how the respective prejudices lie after various other genocides, but I might have to hand it to you that Anti-semitism is a singularly persistent form of racism, with the Holocaust its most virulent flowering. But it most certainly can and ought to be compared to other such situations. The scale multiplied by the level of intentionality makes it a pre-eminent example, certainly. But it contains elements recognizable from most other genocides. I think the "uniqueness" must be rationalised down to the question of industrialised "evil". If there are other genocides with greater total death-rates, or more rapid rates of killing, then it is not so much the deaths, but the "evil" of those who did them which is what puts it into a category beyond the rest.

Sorry, was I arguing about the defintion of evil? I don't do theology. I don't get your point.

Thing is anti-semitism is not RACIAL, it's not even (weirdly) theological (which it ought to be, surely), it's universal, unrational, something we can't define. And it's persistant, unfortuntely, from the 30s to the 90s. And it's fucked up the Palestinians, which I'm sorry about.

Is international, conspiritorial, gets beneath the skin, and everywhere still, and isn't that amazing?

Whould've thunk it.

.............the Nazi's attempt to exterminate European Jewry was UNIQUELY ambitious and sucessful

Click to expand...

though it wasn't very successful or sophisticated, the right hegelians would probably have been disappointed with the inefficacy of their beloved prussian civil service (for instance 15% of the jews in poland survived, 50% in romania)

THE KILLING RATE WAS FASTER THAN THE NAZIS IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME

Click to expand...

the first part supposes the latter you see.....

..........and in the background of historical anti-semitism, which had pan-national support from France to the Middle East in the 30s and before and after and everywhere, was more important and dangerous and appalling and destrutive, and still exists like a virus

Click to expand...

and you think your seemingly intelligent interlocutors were unaware or forgetful of these things?

LIKe A VIRUs1!

I'm sorry, but anti-Tutsi sentiment just does not have the same scope or virulence, unless you disagree

Click to expand...

the number of people killed with machetes in a few weeks suggests that's fairly tendentious and the number of east slavs who were massacred by the nazis was of a similar scale, probably greater still (although largely in an adhoc fashion comparable to the early massacres of jews in the baltic states and ukraine, babi yar etc)

the continuing error is a failure to disocciate historical antisemitism from the event itself and continuum of genocides in which it exists - the holocaust is unique insofar as the historical condition of jewry is unique

Thing is anti-semitism is not RACIAL, it's not even (weirdly) theological (which it ought to be, surely), it's universal, unrational, something we can't define. And it's persistant, unfortuntely, from the 30s to the 90s. And it's fucked up the Palestinians, which I'm sorry about.

Click to expand...

antisemitism in europe was essentially theological until the haskallah or thereabouts

jews were never differentiated unduly from any other infidels who suffered under the caliphate so arabs have largely co-opted the fantastical element of european antisemitism (the translation of the protocols etc)

the notion that none of these antisemitisms can be defined or understood in specificity is just wanton irreason or laziness

Please make your point intelligible and I will be more than willing to answer. (You putz.) But seriously. Do so.

just cos it's syntactically addressed to you please don't infer that i care what you think, although if you were a little more intelligent (or even polite) then that could be different

something is written as a response to something else

there is no point

Whatever the uniqueness of the Holocaust, its historical importance is immense. If only for that reason, the capitalization is justified. Yes, obviously it could be refered to as the ‘WW2 (H- or h-)olocaust’ or something similar for extra clarity, but to refer to the Holocaust as the ‘holocaust’ is to wilfully trivialize its importance to history (which is about far more than the actual event: its relation to the founding of Israel, its effect on post-WW2 Western politics [→world politics], its effect on international law, etc.).

just cos it's syntactically addressed to you please don't infer that i care what you think, although if you were a little more intelligent (or even polite) then that could be different

Ok, but I still don't understand what you were saying, and would quite like to, is all.

Sorry about the putz thing.

For fucks sake Craner (sorry) I think THT's points are pretty clear.

On the Palestinian/Pan-Arabic Anti-Semitism point, (also saddened) its important to tease out the threads of the nature of prejudice which make up the Anti-Semitic thought virus. Originally its roots are theological (though in error within Christianity, partly due to the particular strands of it which came to the forefront) but there are economic components ("The Jews control the banking system"-- feeds into all that conspiracy nonsense) , Eugenicist components (Nazi "untermenschen") and simple Real Politic elements (ie- how the middle east has got sucked in of late)... The perhaps legitimate (from their position) dislike/hate for the political state of Israel has bled over the last decade into Eugenicist and Economic/Conspiratorial strands. I'm not sure why it happened at this point in time though, and not before. Historically there was a tradition of Jewish settlement in Muslim countries was there not without too much enmity? Or is that a pernicious myth?

the construction of islamic (not just arab) antisemitism probably has something to do with the nascent realization that however aberrant it may seem historically, israel isn't going to go away

the level of futility of the palestinians (and for those who live with them vicariously) is clearly so enervating that any rational sense of agency is lost and they try to reciprocate the dehumanization they experience, even if the european judeophobic tradition which they adopt so lazily would also view arabs and muslims as eugenically or culturally inferior

sort of like the inundation of american trash culture in neoliberal dumping grounds (plenty of cdr copies of 50 cent albums in the west bank probably)

slightly tangentialy, a good editorial in ha'aretz today about anti arab racism in israel and its political expression

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/813380.html

Ok, thank you, I take both of your points on good faith, and apologise for being overly combative prior.

I think, though, Arab anti-semitism has roots prior to Arab-Israeli politics of the last 20 years. And, yes, that would be theological.

But even in terms of politics, there's a track record. I would refer to this excellent suite of essays by Mark Erikson published on, of all places, Asia Times Online, which Ive always considered an effective appendige to Buruma and Margalit's Occidentalism.

pics of tehran: http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

man that holocaust t shirt reminds me of the Washington REDSKINS and the Atlanta BRAVES and Clevland INDIANS. Sports teams don these jerseys everyday. So I probably wouldnt get too heated over that t shirt.

sky at night said:

man that holocaust t shirt reminds me of the Washington REDSKINS and the Atlanta BRAVES and Clevland INDIANS. Sports teams don these jerseys everyday. So I probably wouldnt get too heated over that t shirt.

Click to expand...

I think this is a good point. Compare the economic situation and general level of 'cultural functionality' of 'the world's average Jew' to that of the average Native American or, God help them, the average Australian Aborigine.

Of course, the fact that situation X is bad and situation Y is worse is no reason at all not to try and rectify situation X. If this thread is what I remember it being about, the tee-shirt is disgustingly tasteless and offensive, to the point that I'd think "what a prick" if I saw someone wearing it.

Mr. Tea said:

Of course, the fact that situation X is bad and situation Y is worse is no reason at all not to try and rectify situation X. If this thread is what I remember it being about, the tee-shirt is disgustingly tasteless and offensive, to the point that I'd think "what a prick" if I saw someone wearing it.

Click to expand...

agreed.

this is an interesting documentary on IRAN

i dont think destabilizing iran is going to do a lot for reducing anti-semitism, does anyone?