War In Iran

vimothy

yurp
did you notice i didn't refer to the name of any of islamic country in that post? and that the only concrete signifier of political intent was a sympathy for jews in their homeland?

Oh, right. Well, the thread is called "War in Iran"; I was talking about Iran; you spoke of "a county of unusual hetereogeneity, with very many highly educated people of many ethic groups, an essentially westernised urban middle class... the eradication of their nuclear program..." If you didn't mean Iran, you should make it a bit clearer. Unless you are trying to trick me. Regardless, Iran is what I was talking about.

just had 3 cups of tea thanks

Coffee then?

maybe you are not a cunt and i have misread callowness as sociopathy? that would be owing to

No, no, I'm sure you were right the first time.

the assumption that this could have been told is ineluctably orientalist (that is almost common language, and does not suppose everything that someone wrote in an eponymous book)

Well, pre-Said orientalism refers to European Middle Eastern studies, post to a kind of anti-Arab/Islam/Middle East virus infecting the Western gaze (yawn - and is a western concept), at least, IMO. But that's not the point: you haven't explained why.

and whilst i try not to get fucked off by things written on the internet, this is sickening because the same sentiment - assuming the subjected as infantile, undifferentiated and needy and just asking to be providentially violated by a wise and well-intentioned western potentate, even if it involves dropping high explosives upon their awed imploring eyes - is current in some quarters despite the awful suffering it has caused, and may be employd again in the near future to justify further suffering

That's still transference or straw man. I barely wrote a word - where has all this come from? Why would anyone want what you describe? Are you quite mad, is that it?

And don't forget to explain and give support for your thesis that the US and Israel "cause" fundamentalist/jihadist terror:

awful things happen largely as a concession to fundamentalist sentiments within its citizenry that are only being fed by the threat let alone enactment of american/israeli wars
 

tht

akstavrh
And don't forget to explain and give support for your thesis that the US and Israel "cause" fundamentalist/jihadist terror:

awful things happen largely as a concession to fundamentalist sentiments within its citizenry that are only being fed by the threat let alone enactment of american/israeli wars

this is why i can't be fucked continuing this

that are only being fed assumes something extant, that is now being fed

like a captured wolf, it has existed and will continue to exist (if only for a short time) without being fed, although nutrition may help it to grow

the rest of the crap i wrote refers to all the other shit you have written elsewhere, and you have set out your views at tedious length

this has probably closed my original enquiry (about nudnikism, although the enquiry was nudnikishly redundant, mea culpa) and i should go

can i leave a small, half closed box for countertransferrence purposes, that you might better understand psychoanalytic concepts for use in future dialectical shitplay

[ ]
 
Last edited:

vimothy

yurp
this is why i can't be fucked continuing this

that are only being fed assumes something extant, that is now being fed

like a captured wolf, it has existed and will continue to exist (if only for a short time) without being fed, although nutrition may help it to grow

the rest of the crap i wrote refers to all the other shit you have written elsewhere, and you have set out your views at tedious length

this has probably closed my original enquiry (about nudnikism, although the enquiry was nudnikishly redundant, mea culpa) and i should go

can i leave a small, half closed box for countertransferrence purposes, that you might better understand psychoanalytic concepts for use in future dialectical shitplay

[ ]

You and me both mate - I have no where said I want to drop cluster bombs on civilians and give unborn children cancer or any of the (yes, I agree) tedious shit you ascribe to me.

It's been great fun being here while you sling abuse at me and than shout me down for wanting to have it explained, btw. I've feel I've learnt a lot.
 
Attack and invasion are not necessarily the same thing ...


As in the difference ...

Between a Decapitation strike, a target of opportunity, and a Regime change.

Between a well-behaved Unilateral and an Embedded Reporter.

Between friendly fire and trigger-happy fire.

Between a Massive Ordnance Air Burst and the Mother of All Bombs.

Between a Permanent pre-hostility Activist and a Peace Campaigner.

Between Shock and Awe and Sweep and Clear.

Between incontinent ordnance and collateral damage.

Between Guided Smart bombing and Surgical Strikes.

Between non-viable, non-operative combat personnel and bodybags.

And remember ...

... the enemy never runs. He flees ... marines never attack, they advance ... troops never occupy, they liberate ... patrols aren't dangerous, they're danger-filled ... the air force never bombs buildings, it services them ... troops never surrender, they mount a strategic withdrawal ... marines never die, they get wasted ...

Style, soldier, style!!
 

DWD

Well-known member
This has (for the most part) been an interesting thread. Whenever I checked out one of the numerous linked articles suggesting that, behind the scenes, the US is preparing to attack Iran, I found it initially plausible. And chilling.

With a bit of distance, though, I keep coming back to the objection that Bush just doesn't have the clout to get this done - he may want to, and US forces may be preparing for it, but he's also a phenomenally unpopular president, whose judgement has been demonstrably disastrous, and who is facing increased opposition from within his own party after they took a drubbing at the mid-terms for supporting his last war. And, of course, the Senate and Congress are both now in Democrat hands.

So, for me, the debate comes down to this - does Bush have the authority to order an attack on Iran?

He doesn't, apparently:

FP: Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi has told her colleagues that if President Bush wants to take the country to war against Iran, the House of Representatives would take up a bill denying him the authority to do so. Does the House have the ability to do that?

BA: The president has to get another authorization for a war against Iran. It isn’t up to Nancy Pelosi or the House to prevent him; he doesn’t have the constitutional authority to just expand the war.

He does not have the authority to unilaterally invade Iran. I just want to hear what the arguments on the other side are. But the authorization of the use of force after 9/11 doesn’t authorize that.

FP: What about actions short of invasion: air strikes or hot pursuit?

BA: Air strikes would be an invasion. It’s an act of war of an unambiguous variety. I think that the burden is very much on the president of the United States to ask for explicit authorization for an act of war against Iran. On every major military incursion, there is an elaborate ballet where the president says he has the power to do it and the Congress says, “You don’t have the power to do it.” But both in the case of the first Iraq war and the second Iraq war, the president did in fact go to Congress for authority.

On a major incursion into another large Middle Eastern country, I believe that, when push comes to shove, the president will once again request the explicit authorization of Congress. When he was contemplating the invasion of Iraq, he was in a much stronger position politically—and he was still obliged to request authorization. And the same thing would happen again.

Bruce Ackerman is a professor of law and political science at Yale University and the author of Before the Next Attack: Preserving Civil Liberties in the Age of Terrorism (New Haven: Yale University Press, 2006).

Extracted from: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3698
 
This has (for the most part) been an interesting thread. Whenever I checked out one of the numerous linked articles suggesting that, behind the scenes, the US is preparing to attack Iran, I found it initially plausible. And chilling.

With a bit of distance, though, I keep coming back to the objection that Bush just doesn't have the clout to get this done - he may want to, and US forces may be preparing for it,

But an appeal to the credibility of such faux "objections" is precisely how contemporary ideology works. Exactly the same disavowing "objections" were everywhere presented in previous illegal invasions and brutal colonial adventures, to be rapidly replaced by appropriate rationalisations by the mainstream following the invasions themselves.

A few (obvious) points: the Bush admin (and/or Israel) do have such "clout", they do want to invade, and US forces are (actively) preparing for it. Furthermore,

*The heaviest concentration of U.S. naval strike forces since the 2003 war against Iraq is concentrating off Iran.

* CIA drones and U.S. Air Force recon aircraft -- along with U.S. and British Special Forces -- are overflying Iran and probing its nuclear and military installations. CIA and Britain's MI6 are stirring unrest among Iran's Kurds and Azerbaijanis, and arming Iranian royalist exiles.

* A belligerent President George Bush has ordered U.S. forces in Iraq to "kill" Iranian agents or diplomats who appear threatening. Just one simple and obvious example: : A prize-winning Iranian nuclear scientist has recently died in mysterious circumstances, apparently assassinated by Mossad, according to Radio Farda, which is funded by the US State Department and broadcasts to Iran.

* U.S. troops in northern Iraq broke into an Iranian liaison office and arrested its military staff. Bush unblushingly warns Iran, not to "meddle" in neighbouring Iraq. Pentagon sources accused Iran of smuggling weapons and explosives to "Iraqi insurgents;" though the "insurgents" are in fact Shia militiamen allied to the U.S.-installed Baghdad regime.

* At least half of the 21,000 additional U.S. troops headed to Iraq are being positioned to cover the Iranian border and block an Iranian threat to the main U.S. -Kuwait-Baghdad supply line.

* New contingents of U.S. Air Force personnel and warplanes are arriving at key forward air bases in Bulgaria and Romania that link the U.S. to the Mideast and Central Asia. U.S. bases in Britain, Germany, Diego Garcia, the Persian Gulf, Central Asia, and Pakistan are reported on heightened alert. Turkey is being pressed to allow U.S. and Israeli strike aircraft to use its air space to attack northern Iran.

* The Pentagon's latest strike plan against Iran includes more than 2,300 "high value" targets such as its dispersed nuclear infrastructure and, worryingly, operating reactors, air and naval bases, ports, telecommunications, air defences, military factories, energy networks and government buildings. Iran's water and sewage systems, bridges, food storage, and bomb shelters could also be targeted, as were Iraq's in 2001.

* In the economic realm, the U.S. Treasury has mounted a highly effective campaign to strangle Iran financially, seriously hurting its foreign banking connections, retarding industrial growth and energy production, and impeding foreign investment.

* And finally, the Bush administration and close ally Israel have sharply intensified their hysterical propaganda war of words against Iran, claiming, implausibly, it poses a nuclear threat to the entire world.

... but he's also a phenomenally unpopular president, whose judgement has been demonstrably disastrous, and who is facing increased opposition from within his own party after they took a drubbing at the mid-terms for supporting his last war. And, of course, the Senate and Congress are both now in Democrat hands.

So, for me, the debate comes down to this - does Bush have the authority to order an attack on Iran?

He doesn't, apparently

Bush was never a "popular" president, not even being elected first time round, but such has never prevented the pursuit of an agenda.

Again, you're retreating into the fanciful notion that parliamentory democracy, parliamentory procedure and jurisprudential rhetoric [BTW, the Democrats for the most part passively support criminal action against Iran. And Hillary Clinton, who voted for the illegal invasion of sovereign Iraq, cynically knows that she must end the Iraq war in order to launch another - a war on sovereign Iran] has a definitive bearing on long-term US foreign policy. The US Administration is its own "authority" and orchestrates events accordingly. Of course their actions are un-constitutional, of course they are illegal, of course they are war crimes, but that's not how political spin works, because such trifle illegalities have never stopped them: the US as we know abandoned the Republic, its constitutional republican status as far back as the late 19th century when it began its foreign colonial exploits - invading the Phillipines and central America. It has been doing so ever since, all ILLEGAL and without authority ("The US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter" ---former UN Chief Kofi Annan). Just taking the period from 1945 to 1999, the US carried out extremely serious interventions into more than 70 nations.

The problem is that the US Administration needs no "approval" to criminally invade any other country of its choosing. [Indeed, if this was not the case, then why was a resolution recently introduced in the US House of Representatives calling on the President to first seek approval from Congress before using militay force against Iran? "The bill, introduced by longtime Iraq war critic Walter Jones, a Republican, and five other US lawmakers calls on the president to first obtain authorization for an attack on Iran, unless the United States or US interests are attacked first."
 

DWD

Well-known member
Bush was never a "popular" president, not even being elected first time round

No? He had an approval rating of 90% after 9/11 and around 75% at the time he launched the invasion of Iraq. It's now in the mid-to-low 30s and he's scarcely more popular with substantial chunks of his own party than he is with the Democrats.

Again, you're retreating into the fanciful notion that parliamentory democracy, parliamentory procedure and jurisprudential rhetoric has a definitive bearing on long-term US foreign policy. The US Administration is its own "authority" and orchestrates events accordingly.

I'm not disputing the claim that Bush might want to attack Iran - I find it very plausible. Nor am I disputing reports suggesting that the US is laying the foundations for an attack both militarily and diplomatically. However, I'm pretty sure that all of the major US military engagements from WWII onwards have been approved in some way - WWII itself, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq I, Afghanistan, and Iraq II. They've all been agreed by Congress (indirectly in the case of Vietnam - and by the UN in the case of Korea).

I don't see Bush and co bombing Iran without the same kind of license. At some point, they'll have to put it to a vote.

Now, there are plenty of things that the US could do to try and win support for an attack on Iran, but in the current climate I think they're going to find it difficult. It'll take a lot of this - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6351257.stm - before anyone other than Bush and his cronies are in the mood for a new front to be opened in this war.

The problem is that the US Administration needs no "approval" to criminally invade any other country of its choosing. [Indeed, if this was not the case, then why was a resolution recently introduced in the US House of Representatives calling on the President to first seek approval from Congress before using militay force against Iran?

I'd guess it's because they've been reading and hearing the kind of things you listed above and want to force a debate on the issue.
 

vimothy

yurp
As in the difference ...

Between a Decapitation strike, a target of opportunity, and a Regime change.

Between a well-behaved Unilateral and an Embedded Reporter.

Between friendly fire and trigger-happy fire.

Between a Massive Ordnance Air Burst and the Mother of All Bombs.

Between a Permanent pre-hostility Activist and a Peace Campaigner.

Between Shock and Awe and Sweep and Clear.

Between incontinent ordnance and collateral damage.

Between Guided Smart bombing and Surgical Strikes.

Between non-viable, non-operative combat personnel and bodybags.

And remember ...

... the enemy never runs. He flees ... marines never attack, they advance ... troops never occupy, they liberate ... patrols aren't dangerous, they're danger-filled ... the air force never bombs buildings, it services them ... troops never surrender, they mount a strategic withdrawal ... marines never die, they get wasted ...

Style, soldier, style!!

Nope, you have competely missed my point, which was simply that an attack could easily be a one-off surgical strike or black-op, whereas an invasion is necessarily a much biggger operation, lots of troops, huge foot-print, logisitcs, etc. An invasion would be harder, obviously.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Despite what I said in the Euston Manifesto thread, I really hope no direct action is taken against Iran. I just can't see it working out well for any possible party involved. Not that I like the idea of a nuclear Iran per se, but there's no way they'd deploy a weapon against an unfriendly nation in the region (i.e. Israel) for fear of American retaliation, and there's always the possibility they do really want the technology primarily for a civilian energy programme, and God knows we could do with a few more countries investing in fossil fuel alternatives.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Interesting articles, although the second one talks specifically about a nuclear weapons programme - is there any unambiguous evidence for this? Or are they just enriching uranium, whcih could then be used for weapons OR power generation?
 

DWD

Well-known member
Interesting articles, although the second one talks specifically about a nuclear weapons programme - is there any unambiguous evidence for this? Or are they just enriching uranium, whcih could then be used for weapons OR power generation?

I wouldn't pay any attention to that second article. Michael Ledeen only writes stuff that supports Michael Ledeen's crazed agenda. He's not some disinterested talking head - he's one of the guys who laid down the ideological foundation for the neo-con project. Beyond that, he may have actually played a behind-the-scenes role in some of the events leading up to the invasion. His ballsing-up of US foreign affairs dates back as far as the Iran-Contra affair, too.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Though surely if he's such a powerful and dangerous individual it is something of an imperative to pay attention to him.
 

vimothy

yurp
Despite what I said in the Euston Manifesto thread, I really hope no direct action is taken against Iran. I just can't see it working out well for any possible party involved. Not that I like the idea of a nuclear Iran per se,

Er ... "Per se"!

but there's no way they'd deploy a weapon against an unfriendly nation in the region (i.e. Israel) for fear of American retaliation,

Hmm ...

and there's always the possibility they do really want the technology primarily for a civilian energy programme, and God knows we could do with a few more countries investing in fossil fuel alternatives.

I somehow doubt that IRAN needs a civilian nuclear programme (second largest reseves of conventional crude in the world - 133 gigabarrels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves#Iran, as well as having the second largest natural gas reserves in the world).
 

vimothy

yurp
I wouldn't pay any attention to that second article. Michael Ledeen only writes stuff that supports Michael Ledeen's crazed agenda. He's not some disinterested talking head - he's one of the guys who laid down the ideological foundation for the neo-con project. Beyond that, he may have actually played a behind-the-scenes role in some of the events leading up to the invasion. His ballsing-up of US foreign affairs dates back as far as the Iran-Contra affair, too.

Why is it so hard to have a dialogue without people instantly dismissing stuff as part of a nefarious covert plot. Why is there always a "programme" or a "project" which is pursuing some hideous hidden agenda? Can't we put the paranoia aside for just a leeetle bit?
 

DWD

Well-known member
Though surely if he's such a powerful and dangerous individual it is something of an imperative to pay attention to him.

Absolutely. It's well worth knowing something about the man - if only so that when his views are inserted, with no caveat, into a discussion like this, you can confidently dismiss them as the disingenuous schemings of a freak.
 

DWD

Well-known member
Why is it so hard to have a dialogue without people instantly dismissing stuff as part of a nefarious covert plot. Why is there always a "programme" or a "project" which is pursuing some hideous hidden agenda? Can't we put the paranoia aside for just a leeetle bit?

There isn't always a programme or project. I'm not one of those people. But Ledeen's been so relentlessly and devotedly banging the drums of war for so long now that I find it impossible to take anything he says at face value. Whether he's saying it now about Iran, or back in the 90s about Iraq, or tomorrow about Saudi Arabia or Syria, the underlying agenda will be the same: he believes that democracy is only ever spread through "creative destruction" and that the US should be the destroyer-in-chief.

Iran's "nuclear ambitions" are just the latest facade he's using to make those views appear somewhat acceptable.
 
Top