New York vs. London

I worked in a central London pub for three or four years and the staff and regulars (the ones we liked, anyway) had an excellent rapport without any tipping. Sure, many of the regulars bought us drinks - which we were allowed to drink while on the job, as long as we were sensible about it - but they did so because we were already friends; i.e. they didn't buy us drinks in order to become our friends. There were in fact several regulars who bought us drinks all the time (or tried to, at least) but whom we loathed because they were sad lonely boring twats trying to weasel their way into out affections so they could stickk around after closing time, or out of some misplaced hope of trying to get into some of the female staff's knickers.

We once had some really loud obnoxious Americans* in who tried to convince me that "it's traditional for the barman to buy every fourth round or so". I thought "On my wage? You've got to be fucking JOKING", and assumed they were just having a laugh with me.

As someone who spends more time on the customers' side of the bar these days, I can tell you that drinking in London is expensive enough without having to worry about tipping on top of a £3 pint of beer.



*PLEASE don't take this as a generalisation about Americans; Britain had been inflicting loud obnoxious people on the world since before America existed...

Mr. Tea said:

But this is just what I mean - why not increase the price of the drink by $1? Rather than have staff standing there glaring at "fucking retarded foreigners who are to stupid to realise that a drink advertised as costing $5 actually costs $6, I mean DUH!".

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let's keep this simple.

if you are in london, don't tip. if you come to the US, tip. be a good traveler and respect local customs. don't try to change the rules. this is the way it works in the US. you wouldn't walk around India kicking cows in the stomach or stroll thru Tehran swigging from an open can of lager, so toss the extra dollar on the bar in NYC...

and at this point, what european under the age of 40 doesn't know about tipping in the US?

incidentally, buybacks are not a US wide phenomenon... i have friends from Boston who I explained the custom to and they were confused. "free beer?"

"Can you get decent pizza anywhere in Europe?"

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Some people say Italian pizza is alright but I guess it can never match up to the Chicago originators.

"if you are in london, don't tip. if you come to the US, tip. be a good traveler and respect local customs."

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I think that's pretty much on the money, you have to respect local customs no matter how stupid.

"Of course, there's also the fact that the tipping culture goes some way to disguising the fact that US could really do with a livable minimum wage"

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There is.

petergunn said:

let's keep this simple.

if you are in london, don't tip. if you come to the US, tip. be a good traveler and respect local customs...

and at this point, what european under the age of 40 doesn't know about tipping in the US?

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Oh, sure - I do tip when I'm Stateside, I don't want to be seen as the ignorant/tight-fisted tourist: I'm just saying I'd rather pay a higher fixed price in the first place.

IdleRich said:

"Can you get decent pizza anywhere in Europe?"

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Some people say Italian pizza is alright but I guess it can never match up to the Chicago originators.

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LMFAO!

I went to a pub the week b4 last in london, which was a perfectly ordinary pub the last time i went, now the staff tut if you don't tip them on the silver trays they provide, which is frankly bollocks considering the price of the drinks and the fact the place is very busy, it's a weird kinda transatlantic crossover that doesn't convince.

mms said:

I went to a pub the week b4 last in london, which was a perfectly ordinary pub the last time i went, now the staff tut if you don't tip them on the silver trays they provide, which is frankly bollocks considering the price of the drinks and the fact the place is very busy, it's a weird kinda transatlantic crossover that doesn't convince.

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Aargh, I hate that! Giving you change on a little tray as if to say "TIP, PLEASE!". Gah. Given the cost of drinking out in London these days they should be tipping me.

(I suppose a tip isn't entirely unwarranted if they've mixed you a decent cocktail or some kind of complicated coffee concoction, but if all they've done is open a beer or pour you a glass of wine it's taking the piss.)

petergunn said:

let's keep this simple.

if you are in london, don't tip. if you come to the US, tip. be a good traveler and respect local customs. don't try to change the rules. this is the way it works in the US. you wouldn't walk around India kicking cows in the stomach or stroll thru Tehran swigging from an open can of lager, so toss the extra dollar on the bar in NYC...

and at this point, what european under the age of 40 doesn't know about tipping in the US?

incidentally, buybacks are not a US wide phenomenon... i have friends from Boston who I explained the custom to and they were confused. "free beer?"

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people who come to NYC and don't tip make me want to kick them even harder than i already want to just for being tourists. if you're going to clog up the streets looking up, not walk on the right side up the stairs, and in general make mine and every native's commute sheer hell, the least you can do is give your cab driver a 15% tip (he probably has 3 or 4 kids to feed an no health insurance, after all...)

Mr. Tea said:

Heh heh.
I just hate the idea that you're expected to tip by default - and that you express dissatisfaction with a service by not tipping, or even by only leaving a small tip.

My take on it as follows: if service was exceptional, then tip. If it was OK, then just pay the bill. If it was awful, then you complain. Most restaurants these days include a 'discretionary' service charge, which is fair enough, but should be instead of the tip, unless the waitress delivered your food by leaping through a burning hoop on a motorcycle and then sucked you off while you drank your coffee.

Perhaps you wouldn't need to tip if staff in American restaurants/cafes were paid a decent living wage - but then, how would down-market eateries provide their famously cheap food if they did that?

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if you aren't going to respect the customs of the country, then don't dine at restaurants here. it's that simple. anything else is the arrogant heights of ignorance

in the usa, waiters get paid LESS than minimum wage by restaurant owners. TIPS ARE THEIR INCOME.

the french are the absolute worst. brits at least usually have some notion that they're supposed to leave a decent tip

back to original subject, i lived in camden back in 92/93. best time of my life ever, though my craziest weekends were spent down in brighton . . . . camden and east village seem to have followed parallel development. when i was last in camden town, however, mushrooms were openly sold in the market. but i think this has since changed, yes?

i'd enjoy nyc more if i had my own life together, methinks

even so, i've managed to find a few small clubs and bars that take care of my need for musical/cultural community . . . .

stuck out in bushwick/bed-stuy at the moment. can be rather depressing (such disadvantage partially alleviated by weird performers at bar fifty steps away; all in all, would rather live in chinatown). but methinks that modern life in general is depressing. only solution is to work something out for me own self. sometimes consider moving down to savannah, georgia or some such place. or maybe way way upstate to the st lawrence river

as far as crime goes, new york is much safer

which has its own pros and cons

Canada J Soup said:

(not to mention a greatly increased income: take-home on a busy Saturday night can be $800 or more)

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ummm, which bar is this?!????

That's the one! On Goodge Street, right?
Great place.

What's it called?

dominic said:

as far as crime goes, new york is much safer

which has its own pros and cons

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Yeah, it must suck to be a hard-working mugger over there.

dominic said:

if you aren't going to respect the customs of the country, then don't dine at restaurants here. it's that simple. anything else is the arrogant heights of ignorance

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Aaargh! For God's sake, as I said a post or two ago, of course I DO tip, as I realise this is the done thing and the only way for them to make a reasonable income - I'd just rather not have to, which would be the case if they charged more in the first place and paid their waiters a decent wage. I'm not having a go at 'greedy' service industry workers, I know they earn very little, I just think a situation whereby people are paid less than the minimum wage because they're expected to make up the shortfall in tips is ridiculous.

Isn't it also true that they get taxed on tips?

You know when you go to a bar and there's a bloke in the toilets who tries to wash your hands for you, does anyone ever let him or tip him? I never do. I don't mean to be cuntish, cat's got to eat, but the whole concept of having your own 'toilet butler' is so fucking retarded I just want these establishments torn down by the Roundheads.

Haha, yeah - they're called 'bog trolls' and their main purpose is to make sure people aren't going in there to do drugs. But yes, they're highly annoying.

Is it me or is Max Fish the most over-rated bar in NYC? It's like drinking in the rec room at Byker Grove.

"the french are the absolute worst. brits at least usually have some notion that they're supposed to leave a decent tip"

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That's kind of weird though 'cause you tip in France right?

"You know when you go to a bar and there's a bloke in the toilets who tries to wash your hands for you, does anyone ever let him or tip him? I never do. I don't mean to be cuntish, cat's got to eat, but the whole concept of having your own 'toilet butler' is so fucking retarded I just want these establishments torn down by the Roundheads"

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I pretty much agree with every single word of that. The venue is greedily forcing you and that guy in to an awkward situation that neither of you wants to be in, whoever came up with the idea needs to die.

MATT MAson said:

Is it me or is Max Fish the most over-rated bar in NYC? It's like drinking in the rec room at Byker Grove.

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it's kind of got a grandfather clause, as it was one of the first new bars on the LES way back in the day... it used to be decent, say 10 years ago...

Mr. Tea said:

Isn't it also true that they get taxed on tips?

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depends on the bar... big places, yes. small places, no.

oliver craner said:

That's the one! On Goodge Street, right?
Great place.



What's it called?

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just turn left on Goodge off of Charing Cross and you can't miss it. it's on the north side of the street about a block in.

dominic said:

sometimes consider moving down to savannah, georgia or some such place. or maybe way way upstate to the st lawrence river

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savannah is a beautiful city. my grandfather lived there. this brings up another subject, the idea of moving from expensive world cities like London, NYC, Tokyo, Paris to cheap world cities like Berlin, Montreal, New Orleans (well, pre-hurricane New Orleans), Barcelona, etc... what do dissensians think of this? i was considering moving to Berlin a few years back and am now thinking about Montreal... hmmm, maybe i should start a seperate topic on this...