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Thread: The Carbon Thread

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    I'm old enough to remember lying awake at night 'knowing' the Russians could nuke us. The sky incandescent, body smashed to smithereens, evaporated. This was THE nightmare of the entire Cold War period
    Hardcore was the first music to embrace the aesthetic of oblivion and it coincided with the end of the Cole war. Society was now detached e Pugh from nuclear apocalypse that it could now fathom it for entertainment purposes.

    See also the nuclear war dream sequence in terminator 2
    not what i was hoping for if i'm honest

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  3. #227
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  4. #228
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    Quoting without attribution: "here's a take so hot i dare not ever say it in public: the way the eco left talks about climate change as if it's proof of the fact that trying to transcend nature with industry is intrinsically unsustainable, rather than a specific problem to do with the specifics of fossil fuels, is genuinely the exact same logic as the right in the '80s talking about aids as proof of the inherent unsustainabiltiy of sexual freedom and non-hetero sex rather than a specific epidemic. the two arguments are equally good"

    "Further: the right opposed sex education and condom/clean needle distribution on the grounds that these would encourage people to continue in the bad old ways; the eco left doesn't really want to know how industrial civilisation can be run on clean energy, or that we could scrub carbon from the air, since we'd escape the moral consequences and hence the moral lesson of climate change."

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  6. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    I'm old enough to remember lying awake at night 'knowing' the Russians could nuke us. The sky incandescent, body smashed to smithereens, evaporated. This was THE nightmare of the entire Cold War period
    Uh, we're talking about civilian nuclear energy, not bombs.
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  7. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by poetix View Post
    Quoting without attribution: "here's a take so hot i dare not ever say it in public: the way the eco left talks about climate change as if it's proof of the fact that trying to transcend nature with industry is intrinsically unsustainable, rather than a specific problem to do with the specifics of fossil fuels, is genuinely the exact same logic as the right in the '80s talking about aids as proof of the inherent unsustainabiltiy of sexual freedom and non-hetero sex rather than a specific epidemic. the two arguments are equally good"

    "Further: the right opposed sex education and condom/clean needle distribution on the grounds that these would encourage people to continue in the bad old ways; the eco left doesn't really want to know how industrial civilisation can be run on clean energy, or that we could scrub carbon from the air, since we'd escape the moral consequences and hence the moral lesson of climate change."
    There's something to that argument and I've had similar thoughts myself - the 'punishment for techno hubris' bit, I mean, not the Aids parallel.
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  8. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Uh, we're talking about civilian nuclear energy, not bombs.
    Uh, yeah, these things get entwined in the unconscious you simpleton

  9. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by poetix View Post
    Quoting without attribution: "here's a take so hot i dare not ever say it in public: the way the eco left talks about climate change as if it's proof of the fact that trying to transcend nature with industry is intrinsically unsustainable, rather than a specific problem to do with the specifics of fossil fuels, is genuinely the exact same logic as the right in the '80s talking about aids as proof of the inherent unsustainabiltiy of sexual freedom and non-hetero sex rather than a specific epidemic. the two arguments are equally good"

    "Further: the right opposed sex education and condom/clean needle distribution on the grounds that these would encourage people to continue in the bad old ways; the eco left doesn't really want to know how industrial civilisation can be run on clean energy, or that we could scrub carbon from the air, since we'd escape the moral consequences and hence the moral lesson of climate change."
    That would be true if climate was an isolated crisis confined to essentially a technical problem of how to produce energy without emitting carbon dioxide. Unfortunately that's not the case. We face manifold ecological crises related to overconsumption, pollution, biodiversity, extinction, overfishing, deforestation, soil depletion. If all of the carbon from the last 200 years was magically removed from the atmosphere tomorrow we would still have to deal with all of these other critical issues, all of which are related to industry, or more precisely, capitalism and it's founding myth of infinite economic growth within a closed system.

    TLDR, the author of that quote is talking absolute bollocks.

  10. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    Uh, yeah, these things get entwined in the unconscious you simpleton
    It sounded like you were genuinely conflating them.

    I mean, you've said things as stupid as that before while trying to score points against me.
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  11. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    That would be true if climate was an isolated crisis confined to essentially a technical problem of how to produce energy without emitting carbon dioxide. Unfortunately that's not the case. We face manifold ecological crises related to overconsumption, pollution, biodiversity, extinction, overfishing, deforestation, soil depletion. If all of the carbon from the last 200 years was magically removed from the atmosphere tomorrow we would still have to deal with all of these other critical issues, all of which are related to industry, or more precisely, capitalism and it's founding myth of infinite economic growth within a closed system.

    TLDR, the author of that quote is talking absolute bollocks.
    About half of all GHG emissions are associated with fossil fuels. If a clean, safe and economical alternative to that could be found, the rate of climate change would be halved. On top of that, it would solve all the problems associated with FF extraction and use - oil spills, smog, acid rain, everything. Are you seriously saying that this would not be desirable in itself?

    I think many people on the left have a knee-jerk antipathy towards technological solutions because technology is inextricably linked with capitalism. To be honest I get the impression you'd be really disappointed if a commercial company announced tomorrow that it had cracked economically viable fusion energy.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 05-06-2019 at 12:57 PM.
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  12. #235
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    Chernobyl's starkest warning is about the white-hot, reality-denying stupidity of authoritarian, hierarchical socialism, not nuclear fission.


    Cheers for the warning, lads. Cunts.



    It's ironic that combustion of carbon graphite reactor core made Chernobyl such a bitch of an accident to deal with.

    This photo is interesting. That blob is part of the melted core that made its way down to the basement. The optical artefacts in the photo are caused by the radiation it's kicking out. The dude in the hardhat is lighting his fag off it, TEN YEARS after the accident.

    Last edited by HMGovt; 04-06-2019 at 11:52 PM.

  13. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by HMGovt View Post
    Chernobyl's starkest warning is about the white-hot, reality-denying stupidity
    The history of nuclear accidents demonstrates that this phenomenon was equally common in the West.

  14. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    The history of nuclear accidents demonstrates that this phenomenon was equally common in the West.
    The fact remains that, of the three accidents in the two most serious categories, two happened in the USSR (and the other in Japan):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...ar_Event_Scale

    Of course Three Mile Island and Windscale/Sellafield were pretty bad too, but nothing like the scale of the really big ones.

    The point is that it's possible to learn from mistakes and take action to ensure similar accidents don't happen in future, or at least to greatly mitigate the risk. Whereas the harm caused by coal-burning power plants, at both a local and global level, isn't a "risk"; it's an unavoidable feature of their day-to-day operation.
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