The Carbon Thread

gek-opel

entered apprentice
The Gore thing is egregious because his own fucking film tells people all these ways they can save the earth through more thoughtful consumer choices. It's stupid, yes, since buying a hybrid has nothing on all factories in China -- it's basically the consumerist incorporation of radical environmental ideology. But GORE HIMSELF advocates it and doesn't follow through.

Its dangerous because it gives an easy option, a get out clause which people (and governments) will easily subscribe to- that there is no need to fundamentally alter our lives, our ways of practically living, or systems of political economy. In reality Gore's soft-consumerist/individualistic approach is totally poisonous and deadly to the cause-- creating the illusion that something is being done ("hey I bought a hybrid car, run it on bio-fuel, eat organic-- problem solved muthafucker...") when in reality nothing short of massive socio-economic change and/or technological revolution will suffice.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Its dangerous because it gives an easy option, a get out clause which people (and governments) will easily subscribe to- that there is no need to fundamentally alter our lives, our ways of practically living, or systems of political economy. In reality Gore's soft-consumerist/individualistic approach is totally poisonous and deadly to the cause-- creating the illusion that something is being done ("hey I bought a hybrid car, run it on bio-fuel, eat organic-- problem solved muthafucker...") when in reality nothing short of massive socio-economic change and/or technological revolution will suffice.

So we should probably celebrate his hypocrisy as proof of how empty his "solution" is...
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Yes, perhaps. However it leaves open two problems - firstly that if he weren't a hypocrite, perhaps his solution might be appropriate. And secondly that if even he is a hypocrite with this weak solution, then we all are, and therefore we might as well not worry and just consumer ourselves into the ground.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
But the thing is, private vehicle emmissions must make up a huge proportion of America's CO2 and other atmospheric pollutant output - possibly more so than any other country - so if *everyone* bought a lower-emmission vehicle, stopped making unnecessary journeys, actually started walking or biking for short journeys, used public transport etc., the difference would be massive. Of course, if just a few people here and there do it, it's not going to make any difference at all.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Yes, perhaps. However it leaves open two problems - firstly that if he weren't a hypocrite, perhaps his solution might be appropriate. And secondly that if even he is a hypocrite with this weak solution, then we all are, and therefore we might as well not worry and just consumer ourselves into the ground.

Actually I think most of his audience doesn't really care... All those rich coastal liberals that give him money just need some sort of cause in their life so they can tell themselves they aren't completely amoral credit-cards-with-genitals, but without actually disturbing their wasteful meaningless lives. They will never be anything but the problem, no matter what nonpharmaceutical means they use to get to sleep at night.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
But the thing is, private vehicle emmissions must make up a huge proportion of America's CO2 and other atmospheric pollutant output - possibly more so than any other country - so if *everyone* bought a lower-emmission vehicle, stopped making unnecessary journeys, actually started walking or biking for short journeys, used public transport etc., the difference would be massive. Of course, if just a few people here and there do it, it's not going to make any difference at all.

If everyone in America bought a new car, I think the environment would be poorer for it.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
If everyone in America bought a new car, I think the environment would be poorer for it.

People in America (and elsewhere) buy new cars all the time. I'm not advocating they all go out and buy a new car now, but the cars on the road are continually being replaced, so people have the choice to replace them with Humvees or more economical models, don't they?
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
People in America (and elsewhere) buy new cars all the time. I'm not advocating they all go out and buy a new car now, but the cars on the road are continually being replaced, so people have the choice to replace them with Humvees or more economical models, don't they?

Actually most people in this country are heavily in debt and living paycheck to paycheck, so I don't think they have the choice. Regardless, this is essentially an argument over drop-in-the-barrel tactics. A Prius gets what, 40-50 miles per gallon? And emits 60-70% the CO2 (if they are to be believed)? Sure, it would be less, but still change nothing.

This is basically the exact same thing as people who get off on rape stories using grief/empathy as a "fig leaf" (great term Gek). Here the neurotic need for new products gets the fig leaf of environmental protection (or "awareness," such an execrable term), which doesn't negate the fact that the entire system of overproduction/overconsumption is what's going to cause environmental collapse and buying new cars just keeps this system in place.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
And most people who get a "new" car get a used/secondhand one. My parents have never bought an actually new car in their lives.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Actually most people in this country are heavily in debt and living paycheck to paycheck, so I don't think they have the choice. Regardless, this is essentially an argument over drop-in-the-barrel tactics. A Prius gets what, 40-50 miles per gallon? And emits 60-70% the CO2 (if they are to be believed)? Sure, it would be less, but still change nothing.

This is basically the exact same thing as people who get off on rape stories using grief/empathy as a "fig leaf" (great term Gek). Here the neurotic need for new products gets the fig leaf of environmental protection (or "awareness," such an execrable term), which doesn't negate the fact that the entire system of overproduction/overconsumption is what's going to cause environmental collapse and buying new cars just keeps this system in place.

Yes yes yes-- its the same shit of rampant consumerism which created a lot of this problem in the first place. One of the most ingenious things about capitalism is that it creates a problem (say environmental collapse or obesity due to sedentary lifestyles and processed diets) and then sells you the solution too!

And Mr Tea-- the point is that individualistic consumer choice alone won't solve the problem I think: even if everyone buying a Prius or whatever would reduce the USA's emissions significantly most people will not buy one, for a variety of reasons, if given the free choice. Hence the limits of the solution.
 

vimothy

yurp
People in America (and elsewhere) buy new cars all the time. I'm not advocating they all go out and buy a new car now, but the cars on the road are continually being replaced, so people have the choice to replace them with Humvees or more economical models, don't they?

Did you hear about this?
 

vimothy

yurp
Yeah, and so what? Do you believe, endorse, or agree with, Spinella's findings? And if so, on what basis?

Er, what? I can see that a view that takes on board the entire life-cycle energy cost of a vehicle might throw up some interesting conclusions. I have no prior commitment to either car, and certainly can accept in principle the idea that a hummer could be more fuel efficient over the course of its life. Why not? It doesn't need to be political, though, obviously, it probably will be. In any case (ignoring the fact that study wasn't peer reviewed and all of the other criticisms of it, like unsupported lifetime mileage assumptions and so on), it makes me think that making a "green" car is not going to be as simple as making a car and saying, "look, it's green." Everything is complicated.

But let me ask you the question you're angling for: Do you not believe, endorse or agree with Spinella's findings? And if not, on what basis?
 

vimothy

yurp
It's funny how people seem more attached to the idea that their own particualr peculiarity is the one that's going to make all the difference, than they are to actually making a difference, such that if it comes own to a choice, most people would rather be right. (Not that I'm thinking of fair trade here, no sir).
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
And Mr Tea-- the point is that individualistic consumer choice alone won't solve the problem I think: even if everyone buying a Prius or whatever would reduce the USA's emissions significantly most people will not buy one, for a variety of reasons, if given the free choice. Hence the limits of the solution.

Well then how about not buying a car at all? How's that for a 'consumer choice'? Of course it's not going to be practical for many people, but it could be for some - especially if there was a bit more federal spending on public transport - of course I'm talking totally hypothetically here, since it would involve big changes in culture at every level from central government down to individual consumers. Aren't these the 'radical changes in lifestyle' you mentioned as the only thing that can do any good a few posts ago?
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Er, what? I can see that a view that takes on board the entire life-cycle energy cost of a vehicle might throw up some interesting conclusions. I have no prior commitment to either car, and certainly can accept in principle the idea that a hummer could be more fuel efficient over the course of its life. Why not? It doesn't need to be political, though, obviously, it probably will be. In any case (ignoring the fact that study wasn't peer reviewed and all of the other criticisms of it, like unsupported lifetime mileage assumptions and so on), it makes me think that making a "green" car is not going to be as simple as making a car and saying, "look, it's green." Everything is complicated.

But let me ask you the question you're angling for: Do you not believe, endorse or agree with Spinella's findings? And if not, on what basis?

I think it demonstrates pretty thoroughly the fact that green consumerism is primarily consumerism rather than green behaviour, and that total energy consumption/carbon output may be counter-intuitive (see also food miles, where actually sometimes a product with high food miles may be better than a lower one as it requires significantly less inputs to grow in a warmer climate in the third world).
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Also they are going to have to make some "green" semi-trucks because that's how 95% of American goods get to the stores -- on pure diesel.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
For the first time since records began way back in 1978!

Explorers have been searching for the Northwest Passage for centuries, it was basically a myth until this year.
And given the rate of warming, if this is the first time it's been open since at least 1978, it's probably the first time it's been open in human history.
 
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