"human nature"

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Surely what Hundred... was on about is the way that "civilization" merely serves to obscure the barbarity behind an acceptable veneer, inside the homes of wife beaters, into the sweatshops of the third world, far from our gaze, into the minds of the mentally ill created by such societies. It neutralizes it into the invisible hand of capitalism, dematerializes it and abstracts it into the modern financial system of hyper-capital and meta-futures, melts it away in the white heat of computer game techno-conflict. The violence, exploitation and inhumanity continue, indeed on a far greater scale, but at an acceptable remove. This is in itself civilization, perhaps... it has tamed violence into a denatured, economic/administrative function...

I think we can all agree that terrible stuff is happening in many parts of the world on both big and smalls scales - I mean, that's almost so obvious as to be hardly worth saying - but I think it's certainly the case that everyday life for most people in developed societies is far less brutal and violent today than at almost any time in the past. Of course, that doesn't touch upon the atrocities that are being committed in certain parts of the world while the developed world looks on and does nothing to stop it (eg. Darfour - although any intervention there would just be a facade for imperialist aggression and so and so forth, as far as a lot of people on here are concerned) or where the conditions for brutality have been prepared by the intervention of developed countries (Afghanistan) or even committed by developed countries themselves (Guantanamo). Then of course you have things like the huge numbers of people in the penal system in the US - something must be causing those people to commit crimes, or at least be failing to deter them.

I think it's interesting that you mention capitalism. Yes, it is a system that certainly can allow people to be exploited by those in positions of wealth, which confers power, but violence has always been with us, since long before caplitalism (as it is understood today) existed. People have been oppressing, dispossessing, enslaving, torturing and massacring each other since pre-history: if the scale has changed, I'd say it was primarily due to far larger populations fighting over the same amount of land and resources, and using much deadlier weapons to do it.
 
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Gavin

booty bass intellectual
A video I enjoy: Chomsky vs. Foucault on human nature from 1971.

Part 1

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Part 2

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"2. Death is not an everyday thing, so life is considered more precious."

I would have supposed the opposite: death is put at a remove so life is taken for granted -- otherwise how could we "freely" resign ourselves to the soul-crushing routines of everyday life in the West?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
"2. Death is not an everyday thing, so life is considered more precious."

I would have supposed the opposite: death is put at a remove so life is taken for granted -- otherwise how could we "freely" resign ourselves to the soul-crushing routines of everyday life in the West?

So everyone in the non-Western world lives a life of constant novelty, deep inner meaning and spiritual contentment? Give me a break. This is the kind of crap only the truly smug self-loathing post-everything Westerner would ever come out with.
 

vimothy

yurp
So everyone in the non-Western world lives a life of constant novelty, deep inner meaning and spiritual contentment? Give me a break. This is the kind of crap only the truly smug self-loathing post-everything Westerner would ever come out with.

That's why migration always follows the same pattern: away from the dead eyed soul-less western desert of the real, towards the freedom loving, relaxed green air mind of the third world. That's the way it goes and you'd be a fool and a capitalist to suggest otherwise.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
That's why migration always follows the same pattern: away from the dead eyed soul-less western desert of the real, towards the freedom loving, relaxed green air mind of the third world. That's the way it goes and you'd be a fool and a capitalist to suggest otherwise.

NEO-LIBERAL!!!!!111 :mad: :mad: :mad:
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
"2. Death is not an everyday thing, so life is considered more precious."

I would have supposed the opposite: death is put at a remove so life is taken for granted -- otherwise how could we "freely" resign ourselves to the soul-crushing routines of everyday life in the West?

Yes, that’s another aspect of it. Pinker, however, only discusses it in relation to propensity for physical violence:

Payne suggests another possibility: that the critical variable in the indulgence of violence is an overarching sense that life is cheap. When pain and early death are everyday features of one's own life, one feels fewer compunctions about inflicting them on others. As technology and economic efficiency lengthen and improve our lives, we place a higher value on life in general.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
So everyone in the non-Western world lives a life of constant novelty, deep inner meaning and spiritual contentment? Give me a break. This is the kind of crap only the truly smug self-loathing post-everything Westerner would ever come out with.

Not quite sure how you read this into what I said, nor do I understand the ad hominem attacks (I'd like to think my smugness level is low, although with chances of self-loathing)... Do you disagree that removing the proximity of death -- literally quarantining the elderly for example -- causes us to take life for granted, rather than value it more? That we live in a time of profound neurotic denial of mortality? And that this has profound cultural implications?

Maybe I'm just around too many undergrads who proclaim a warped version "Live each day as if it were your last" in order to justify the compulsion to enjoy -- i.e. consume, which has everything to do with not dealing with the finality of death in any real way.
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
Not quite sure how you read this into what I said, nor do I understand the ad hominem attacks (I'd like to think my smugness level is low, although with chances of self-loathing)... Do you disagree that removing the proximity of death -- literally quarantining the elderly for example -- causes us to take life for granted, rather than value it more? That we live in a time of profound neurotic denial of mortality? And that this has profound cultural implications?

Maybe I'm just around too many undergrads who proclaim a warped version "Live each day as if it were your last" in order to justify the compulsion to enjoy -- i.e. consume, which has everything to do with not dealing with the finality of death in any real way.

I see what you mean. Both theories seem plausible. Maybe for Sudanese people, for example, life is cheap and valued more. More violence, but a better quality of life.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
One thing I've always suspected, which is born out somewhat by this , is that a lot of poor countries have low rates of suicide, on the basis that when you face a day-to-day struggle to survive (OK, so that only applies to the very poorest/most fucked-up countries, but when 'life is hard', let's say) you value your own life more and so are less likely to want to it end it yourself.

Perhaps it's not too surprising that the top 9 countries by suicide are all former Soviet Union or Soviet Bloc states.

Edit: Gavin, I wasn't trying to have a go at you personally, I just hate this idea that we in the big bad soulless secular West have lost some vital spark of spirituality or connection to Mother Nature or however zhao would put it that they still have in 'less developed' (read: dirt-poor) countries.
 
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Gavin

booty bass intellectual
I see what you mean. Both theories seem plausible. Maybe for Sudanese people, for example, life is cheap and valued more. More violence, but a better quality of life.

I'd agree with the first part, but I wouldn't say "better quality of life." I'd think you'd need some sort of stability for a good quality of life, as well as the recognition of life's finitude.
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
One thing I've always suspected, which is born out somewhat by this , is that a lot of poor countries have low rates of suicide, on the basis that when you face a day-to-day struggle to survive (OK, so that only applies to the very poorest/most fucked-up countries, but when 'life is hard', let's say) you value your own life more and so are less likely to want to it end it yourself.

On the other hand, surveys where people round the globe subjectively estimate their own ‘happiness’ have exposed a great rift between the first and the third world, with the latter being happier. If I remember correctly, Mozambique outclassed the West. :D
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
I'd agree with the first part, but I wouldn't say "better quality of life." I'd think you'd need some sort of stability for a good quality of life, as well as the recognition of life's finitude.

True, that was an infelicitous way of putting it. ‘Appreciate life more’, perhaps?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I would say the key ingredients for a happy society would be the following:

- basic human needs being met: it's hard to be happy when you're starving hungry;
- a bit 'left over', so people don't have to work all the time, can relax and enjoy themselves once in a while, and so that there's time for them to play and learn when they're young and rest when they're old;
- freedom from oppression, discrimination and violence, i.e. basic garuantees of human rights;
- not being constantly made jealous and greedy by constant aspirational advertising and the presence of a super-rich privileged elite.

It's the last point that, I think, is responsible for much of the unhappiness felt in a rich, democratic country like the UK. Most of us have the other three in spades.
In any case, I think this 'modern malaise' is vastly talked up, to the point that the main cause of it is belief that there is such a thing.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
In any case, I think this 'modern malaise' is vastly talked up, to the point that the main cause of it is belief that there is such a thing.

Is "modern malaise" not related to escalating diagnoses of mental illness and depression, as well as the prescription of psychotropic drugs to treat these, or do you see this as a result of "talking up"?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I agree with your point (if that was your point?) about psychiatric medication, in that I think it is massively over-prescribed, especially to children. I also think much more should be done to treat people with real mental health issues, and there's still a lot of stigma attached to it. But I think you have to balance that against the tendency for some people to feel the need to see a 'shrink' simply as an ego boost or because their life isn't perfect - how many people's lives are perfect?

The way some people go on, you'd think we're all having existential crises brought on by the sheer horror of a shopping trip to Tesco. I mean, fuck's sake, when did we all become so bloody melodramatic?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
It's because Reagan ate my daughter! I blame RAND, Hayek and the New Managerialism!

Pffft. You're funny, you are. :)

I think consumerism is very damaging if it becomes someone's raison d'etre, if it's what they live for. The same can be said of many other things, including (off the top of my head) religion and drugs. Personally, I like living in a society where I can buy all sorts of things. Much of it's complete crap of course, but then it's my prerogative to buy things I like and leave the crap. What I'm not so keen on is the fact that many of these goods have been produced or transported in ways that are extremely profligate in terms of fuel use/carbon emmissions, and sometimes are very unethical in terms of the wages and working conditions of the people who've produced them - but that's for another thread. The main point is that things are, after all, only things, and that they should enhance but not dominate one's life. If this is getting all a bit guy-in-the-pub philosophical, I shall sum it up that people become depressed and disillisioned by consumerism only if they let it, and it's up to them do seek other ways of giving their life meaning.

/Mr. Tea, fighting existential emptiness with picnics since 1998
 

vimothy

yurp
I agree with much of what you say re consumerism. What's that example Satre (? I think) uses? Something like an angel who has lost his wings would be very depressed, but a human in exactly the same situation (i.e. without the power of flight) wouldn't give a damn because he'd have nothing to compare it to. Similarly, if everyone was born disabled, no one would regret their disability.

With reagrds to money and consumerism, we actually live in a time of over-abundance, the like of which has never been seen before in all of human history. If you're annoyed because you can't afford a new iPod, your neighbour has a better car or you can't stop buying new shoes even though you're in masses of debt, and it's sending you on a downward spiral of meaningless sex, prozac and super-skunk, I suggest you stop behaving like a dick (don't blame capitalism for one thing), start behaving like an adult, and go off camping somewhere quiet for a bit and sort your shit out, something like that.
 
Thanks for succinctly clarifying the central issue, gek-opel. And, indeed, it could also be argued - in addition to the inescapable mediation of the world via language which John Doe has summarised - that contemporary biogenetics - ironically - desubstantialises human nature (as well as all other kinds), flittering away its impenetrable density. I recall Zizek's conclusion: "By reducing a human being to a natural object whose properties can be altered, what we lose is not (only) humanity but nature itself. In this sense, Francis Fukuyama is right in Our Posthuman Future: the notion of humanity relies on the belief that we possess an inherited 'human nature', that we are born with an unfathomable dimension of ourselves."

Coincidentally, some years ago, in a very different context, I collated some of the anthropological research to which Pinker is alluding in his work, much of which I would now consider inherently problematical:

The idea of the noble savage living in harmony with his fellows and
with nature is a persistent myth. According to this notion, modern man
is in a fallen state compared with his noble past. However, it seems
to be the case that much recent scientific investigation increasingly
suggests that the truth may lie closer to the reverse of the popular
conception.


"One of the most dangerous fallacies which has influenced a great deal
of political and philosophical thinking is that man is essentially
good, and that it is society which makes him bad," Kubrick wrote in
1972, in defence of his characterisation of the brutal Alex in A
Clockwork Orange. "Rousseau transferred original sin from man to
society, and this view has importantly contributed to what I believe
has become a crucially incorrect premise on which to base moral and
political philosophy ... The age of the alibi, in which we find
ourselves, began with the opening sentence of Rousseau's Emile:
"Nature made me happy and good, and if I am otherwise, it is society's
fault." It is based on two misconceptions: that man in his natural
state was happy and good, and that primal man had no society. "


The poet John Dryden described man in a state of nature in 1670: "I am
as free as nature first made man, when wild in woods the noble savage
ran." It was much later, in 1755, that enlightenment philosopher
Jean-Jacques Rousseau canonised the noble savage when he wrote:
"Among the savages, personal interest speaks as strongly as among us,
but it does not say the same things. The love of society and the care
for common protection are the only bonds which unite them.... They do
not have any discussion of interests which divide them. Nothing leads
them to deceive one another. Public esteem is the only good to which
they aspire and which they value."


Amerigo Vespucci, who explored the coast of Brazil in 1501-02,
described the natives as completely free, politically and morally,
with no religion or kings and no need of money, trade or property, and
living to be very old. Europeans found this image delightful, and for
a long time European travellers to South America saw everything
through this rose-coloured lens.


Noble savages were not confined to South America. In the 1960s
anthropologists discovered the Kung people of the Kalahari Desert. A
three-week study found them to be peaceful and egalitarian. They
enjoyed a nutritious diet and gathered all the food they needed by
foraging for two or three hours a day. It was concluded that this
lifestyle was a universal human norm until 10,000 years ago. The
lifestyle of the hunter-gatherer Kung was promoted as peaceful,
healthy and leisurely and much better adapted to nature than the
lifestyle of modem man.


It is now accepted that these ideas were erroneous. The three weeks of
the study coincided with a brief bountiful period in an otherwise
harsh life. In the 19th century the Kung were an integral part of the
local economy. They traded cattle, ivory and ostrich feathers for
manufactured and agricultural products. They used guns to hunt
elephants. A hundred years later the elephants had surrendered to the
guns and the cattle to disease - and nobody wanted ostrich feathers.
The Kung were driven into deep poverty and a foraging lifestyle. Like
other tribal societies their life is unpleasant. Infant mortality is
high, life expectancy is 30 years and they suffer great hardship when
food is scarce.


Journalists were taken to see a tribe called the Tasaday on Mindanao,
the second largest island of the Philippines, in 1972. The Tasaday
appeared to be genuine noble savages. They lived in caves, used tools
of stone and bamboo and wore clothes made of leaves. They foraged a
diet of roots, insects, fruit, frogs and crabs. They had no concept of
corporal punishment, no method of counting time and no word for "war".
They lived in harmony with one another and with their environment. In
1986 a Swiss journalist revisited the Tasaday. The tribesmen told him
they had been paid to wear leaves, to eat wild food, to leave their
thatched huts for caves and to swing from trees.


Many studies show that simple pre-industrial societies were no more
consciously ecologically friendly or peaceful than our own industrial
society. A study of almost 200 pre-industrial societies by Bobby Low
of the University of Michigan showed that low population density,
primitive technology and lack of profitable markets account for their
low environmental impact rather than conscious effort at conservation.
Other studies have shown that prehistoric wars were, taking fighting
technology and population density into account, as frequent, as bloody
and as cruel as modem war.


"Rousseau's romantic fallacy that it is society which corrupts man,
not man who corrupts society, places a flattering gauze between
ourselves and reality. This view ... is solid box office but, in the
end, such a self-inflating illusion leads to despair," argued Kubrick
in 1972.


"Man isn't a noble savage, he's an ignoble savage," Kubrick
thundered. "He is irrational, brutal, weak, silly, unable to be
objective about anything where his own interests are involved - that
about sums it up. I'm interested in the brutal and violent nature of
man because it's a true picture of him. And any attempt to create
social institutions on a false view of the nature of man is probably
doomed to failure." Applying this view to ACO, Kubrick elaborated: "On
this level, Alex symbolizes man in his natural state, the way he would
be if society did not impose its 'civilizing' processes upon him ...
What we respond to subconsciously is Alex's guiltless sense of freedom
to kill and rape, and to be our savage natural selves, and it is in
this glimpse of the true nature of man that the power of the story
derives."


So have humans *evolved* at all since the mysterious appearance of the
ignoble savage (modern man), since Moonwatcher hurled his bone-weapon
into the air? After all, the central thesis of Kubrick - both in 2001
and ACO - is that mankind has not *evolved* whatsoever since then,
however much his technology and weaponry undoubtedly have, and however
much ignoble savage Alex might like Beethovan's Ninth Symphony ...


More recently, however, is the "good" news that, as claimed by Michael
Shermer in the September 2003 edition of *Scientific American*,
humans are evolving in a more peaceful direction. The selective
breeding of wild animals for domestication is accompanied by the
evolution of smaller skulls, jaws and teeth than their wild ancestors,
a process that is called paedomorphism, which means the retention of
juvenile features into adulthood. These include lower levels of
aggression, delayed onset of the fear response to strange stimuli and
a decrease in levels of stress-related hormones.


Humans have also become more agreeable as we have become more
domesticated. Richard Wrangham, a Harvard University anthropologist,
suggests that over the past 20,000 years, as human populations have
grown and become more sedentary, selection pressures have reduced
within-group aggression. This effect has been accompanied by features
such as smaller jaws and teeth than seen in our hominid ancestors, as
well as our continuous breeding season and pronounced sexuality.


The evolutionary hypothesis, as summarised by Sherman, suggests that
limited resources selectively led to within-group co-operation and
between-group competition in humans. This produced within-group amity
and between-group enmity. The way to make further progress, therefore,
is to continue to grow the circle of those we consider to be "members"
of our group.


As Kubrick concludes, "Finally, the question must be considered
whether Rousseau's view of man as a fallen angel is not really the
most pessimistic and hopeless of philosophies. It leaves man a monster
who has gone steadily away from his nobility. It is, I am convinced,
more optimistic to accept Ardrey's view that, '...we were born of
risen apes, not fallen angels, and the apes were armed killers
besides. And so what shall we wonder at? Our murders and massacres and
missiles and our irreconcilable regiments? ... For our treaties,
whatever they may be worth; our symphonies, however seldom they may be
played; our peaceful acres, however frequently they may be converted
into battlefields; our dreams, however rarely they may be
accomplished. The miracle of man is not how far he has sunk but how
magnificently he has risen. We are known among the stars by our poems,
not our corpses.' "​
 
One interesting aspect is if violent movies and computer games harmlessly enervate the impetus for violent behaviour, or if they should be considered present-day outlets for violence. If the latter, one could argue that the yearning, or whatever you would like to call it, for violence has not really decreased, but merely has been canalised. No doubt an encouraging development, but hardly an eradication of violence in a profound sense.

I've just spent half the day playing with - or rather, trying to keep up with the antics thereof - a bunch of kids, who much of the time were wiring their already schzoid nervous systems at their consoles into the virtual reality land of which you speak. Then elliptically, I again watched Cronenberg's eXistenz and decided to play a little Virtual Reality Turing game, so - feck it - I'm going to leverage Cronenberg's film into my kiddy-ventilated 'n' infected hysterical trajectory here in order to sideways "update" Turing's Test for the Virtual Reality Generation ...

Clearly, unmistakably, the VR "Game" that is played in Cronenberg's film is so mimetic-simulation sophisticated that it would effortlessly pass the Turing Test with 1st Class Honours and flying colours with sugar on top, with its ability, for instance, to recursively "nest" further, successive VR games within the terms of reference of its own second-hand VR "reality," a technique that operates in the film so that we repeatedly ask ourselves throughout the "game": what recursive level of the game's reality/unreality are we currently at? And when we eventually iterate ourselves recursively back out of all of these confusing "illusory/real" VR hierarchical layers, how will we know that the final outer layer will, in fact (if it is the outer layer, given that we've lost count of the number of layers anyway), result in us finding ourselves back at ordinary really real "reality?"

Although these are indeed some of the supposedly "core" issues addressed both by this film (and by many other films - The Matrix, Open Your Eyes, etc - in the contemporary genre of escapist paranoid cinema) and by those who are excessively intrigued by VR, the crucial issues here are not actually or merely epistomological or ontological, not merely about "what is real/what is not" or the inability to distinguish between Reality/V-Reality, but about reality-independent moral choices and responsibility - along with a recognition of their actual consequences - in whatever relative reality that you happen to fancy escaping into.

The ambiguous confusion, following the murder of the film's game's inventors, of the final line/question in eXistenZ - "Are we still in the game?" - is not addressed at ascertaining what level of "reality/unreality" the questioner might be still presently residing in, but is instead an implicitly anxious and desperate judgment, plea or questioning of the moral status of such behaviour and choices within reality versus unreality. It's okay to kill people within the game, because, well, "it's only a game, right?", because such virtual killing has no real consequences for the virtual but otherwise human killer and his/her behaviour in the real world, right? Such virtual reality games being originally constructed in the first place in order to enable forms of anti-social behaviour on the part of the
participants that have no actual moral consequences in the outside real world, right? Games that are so constructed as to be so "real" that they finally become indistinguishable from the formerly deemed really real reality, so that participants can finally indulge in "real" anti-social behaviour but without any of the moral qualms or consequences that formerly arose in nasty old former real reality, right? So that, ultimately, it is no longer necessary to "play" this game in mere virtual reality itself, but, instead, in reality itself, because they are now both indistinguishable, right? Reality as SimulacrumGame - the imaginary has collapsed into the real, as the late Baud forecast ..

BOING! ... Time for bed, children, said Zebedee.
 
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