Two dollar pound

old goriot

Well-known member
key to u.s. position is to make sure that oil continues to be denominated in dollars -- this way other countries will always need dollars to buy oil -- otherwise, dollars would be useless and headed for collapse (on a normative theory)

I think the significance of petrodollars gets way overblown. Iran is already selling lots of oil in basically any currency (they were originally going to accept euros only). I don't think it has had the effect that it should have if oil were the only thing backing the dollar.
 

dominic

Beast of Burden
I think the significance of petrodollars gets way overblown. Iran is already selling lots of oil in basically any currency (they were originally going to accept euros only). I don't think it has had the effect that it should have if oil were the only thing backing the dollar.

first, doesn't u.s. want to fight war against iran to seize its oil fields?

second, if oil is not the only thing backing the dollar, what else backs its value?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"It's got nothing to do with "fun", whatever that irrational, conformist nonsense is."
If that's your definition of fun I feel very sorry for you (even more than I did before).
 

old goriot

Well-known member
first, doesn't u.s. want to fight war against iran to seize its oil fields?

No, the US army is utterly incapable of seizing and holding Iranian territory at this point. The most that even the hawks are advocating is a bombing campaign.

fi
second, if oil is not the only thing backing the dollar, what else backs its value?

Security via US military power, the (former) strength of the US economy, and most importantly the role as reserve currency. It's still the basis of the world economy, and there is no clear alternative yet. Every institution is diversifying for lack of any single solid currency to hold.

Just because people have been saying something is unsustainable for 20 years and it hasn't collapsed, it doesn't mean that it is at all sustainable. A system could last for 500 years and not be sustainable, the only difference is that the fallout is exponentially worse. I would argue that the dark ages were the longest depression of all time, brought on by Rome's unprecedented inflationary policies (and the massive effect they had).

In this situation however, it's not just unsustainable in theory any more. The warning signs of a depression within 5-10 years are pouring in everdyday, in every business section of almost every paper in America. The Boston Globe is urging people not to do anything "overboard" like moving dollar assets to precious metals (precisely what everyone with some money and a brain is doing right now - Warren Buffett just bought 1 billion dollars in silver last week). A run on the dollar is becoming a real possibility.
 
If that's your definition of fun I feel very sorry for you (even more than I did before).

LOL. The term was invoked by the poster in order to cynically trivialise a very serious issue, a reactionary term denoting nothing more than some vague hedonic-consumerist fuzziness; and frankly, it is the "fun" ideologists who are drowning in disavowed self-pity, of which the fun-insipid idle rich are the most conspicuous manifestation ...

Dominic said:
first, doesn't u.s. want to fight war against iran to seize its oil fields?

Along with Iran's efforts to set up an independent oil bourse (Iraq was attempting the same in the late 1980s prior to Gulf War I]. And now, it appears, over 3.6 billion barrels of crude oil have just been discovered in southern Iran: Deputy Oil Minister and Managing Director of National Iranian Oil Company (NIOC) Gholam-Hossein Nowzari announced last week that 3.6 billion barrels of crude oil has been discovered in southern Iran over the past 3-4 months.

Dominic said:
second, if oil is not the only thing backing the dollar, what else backs its value?

Commodity fetishism. On a grand scale.

[The PetroDollar is a term used to describe the close relationship between the USDollar and the crude oil export business dominated by Saudi Arabia, manifested in the superstructure of the global banking system. So one could say the oil world provides the pool from which the US$ exchange rate valuation is applied and enforced. ]

old goriot said:
The warning signs of a depression within 5-10 years are pouring in everdyday, in every business section of almost every paper in America. The Boston Globe is urging people not to do anything "overboard" like moving dollar assets to precious metals (precisely what everyone with some money and a brain is doing right now - Warren Buffett just bought 1 billion dollars in silver last week). A run on the dollar is becoming a real possibility.

Yes, even some of the West's most conservative-capitalist institutions, the very institutions that have presided over and orchestrated the MIC-backed bubble virtual economy of the past few decades, are now preparing to similarly preside over an impending meltdown:

Housing Bubble Boondoggle: "Is it too late to get out"? , By Mike Whitney

Details of the meltdown are being downplayed in the media to prevent panic-selling among the public. But the Fed knows what's going on. In fact, the Federal Reserve and the five other federal agencies that regulate banks issued this statement just last week. More ...​

Economic Armageddon Is Coming, By Joel S. Hirschhorn

The British military establishment's most prestigious think tank sees what too few over-consuming Americans are willing to anticipate. Unjustified and mounting economic inequality is planting the seeds for global economic conflict. More ...​


Stocksplosion, By Jim Kunstler

We've entered a euphoric phase of financial arbitrage capitalism with extreme Ponzi overtones, a pyramid scheme of revolving credit rackets and percentage spread plays completely abstracted from any reality of fruitful activity. The reason we don't even call "money" by its former name anymore is precisely because we realize at some semi-conscious level that "liquidity" is not really money. More ...

Of course, the spin psychos, the neo-cons, the Tony Blairs, the gliberals, the fundamentalists, can always just kneel down and pray. "Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord will save my hedge funds ... Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy derivatives index ... Glory be to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Oil ... [while the Warren Buffets and Bill Gates accelerate the crash by - greasy-till - exploiting it. Whoever said late capitalism wasn't suicidally self destructive?]
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
LOL. The term was invoked by the poster in order to cynically trivialise a very serious issue, a reactionary term denoting nothing more than some vague hedonic-consumerist fuzziness; and frankly, it is the "fun" ideologists who are drowning in disavowed self-pity, of which the fun-insipid idle rich are the most conspicuous manifestation ...

Hahaha, you crack me up, you really do...what the fuck does any of that even mean?
Take your head out of your arse, mate! :)
 

dominic

Beast of Burden
No, the US army is utterly incapable of seizing and holding Iranian territory at this point. The most that even the hawks are advocating is a bombing campaign.

yes, but i think that the stakes are so high (i.e., collapse of dollar followed by deep depression in u.s. going hand-in-hand with shift of the center of world power to eur-asian continent) that u.s. may attempt to seize iranian oil fields in a desperate bid to retain dollar's status

Just because people have been saying something is unsustainable for 20 years and it hasn't collapsed, it doesn't mean that it is at all sustainable. A system could last for 500 years and not be sustainable, the only difference is that the fallout is exponentially worse . . . . In this situation however, it's not just unsustainable in theory any more. The warning signs of a depression within 5-10 years are pouring in everday . . . .

the funny thing is, is whether the system (bretton woods 2) was consciously set-up for the u.s. to run such trade imbalances as way to promote world economic growth, i.e., w/ u.s. in the role of the keynesian center that consumes (and so stimulates) production at the periphery OR whether something went amiss in the 90s, after collapse of soviet union, w/ the passage of NAFTA, wherein as french author emmanuel todd argues american policy makers made a half-conscious, half-assed bid for global empire -- with the ever-increasing trade deficit a kind of surreptitious imperial levy on rest of the world

The Boston Globe is urging people not to do anything "overboard" like moving dollar assets to precious metals (precisely what everyone with some money and a brain is doing right now - Warren Buffett just bought 1 billion dollars in silver last week). A run on the dollar is becoming a real possibility.

if i had savings, i'd be moving it into gold or perhaps the japanese yen

i just hope that there's massive inflation, once the dollar crash happens, so that i can pay off my nightmarish student loans -- i.e., a deflationary situation would break me (and so many others like me) til i reach the grave
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
Hahaha, you crack me up, you really do...what the fuck does any of that even mean?
Take your head out of your arse, mate! :)

padraig is far more understandable than he used to be.
ivalue his contributions highly.
although that says more about how the tone in the ploitics and thought sections have been lowered by imperialist nitwits
 

vimothy

yurp
Of course, the spin psychos, the neo-cons, the Tony Blairs, the gliberals, the fundamentalists, can always just kneel down and pray. "Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord will save my hedge funds ... Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy derivatives index ... Glory be to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Oil ... [while the Warren Buffets and Bill Gates accelerate the crash by - greasy-till - exploiting it. Whoever said late capitalism wasn't suicidally self destructive?]

Reading all the economic millenarianism on this thread, I've started to wonder: is the supposedly immanent planetary collapse of capitalism something to be feared or is it something which you look forward to as the final proof that you were right all along, goddamnit? When the day finally comes (if it ever does), I expect to see socialists clapping in the street saying, "we told you so".
 

vimothy

yurp
Economic Armageddon Is Coming, By Joel S. Hirschhorn

The British military establishment's most prestigious think tank sees what too few over-consuming Americans are willing to anticipate. Unjustified and mounting economic inequality is planting the seeds for global economic conflict. More ...

This article is well funny:

Face the ugly truth. Don’t get fooled by the stock market. Accept the need for the mistreated middle class to become the revolutionary class. The British military establishment's most prestigious think tank sees what too few over-consuming Americans are willing to anticipate.... "The middle classes could become a revolutionary class. The growing gap between themselves and a small number of highly visible super-rich individuals might fuel disillusion with meritocracy, while the growing urban under-classes are likely to pose an increasing threat...Faced by these twin challenges, the world's middle-classes might unite, using access to knowledge, resources and skills to shape transnational processes in their own class interest."

Face facts, you spineless consumers: there might be a class war! But what are the middle classes supposed to do, after they've stormed the palaces and taken control, I wonder?

Do those at the top pay their fair share of taxes?

Raise taxes! Seems like a bit of an anti-climax though, can't we abolish private property and shoot some professors as well?

Wonder how much taxes there will be to tax after we alientate all the producers of capital, but never mind, poverty is nothing compared to the possibility of (best Charlton Heston voice, ahem)... Economic Armageddon.
 

dominic

Beast of Burden
Reading all the economic millenarianism on this thread, I've started to wonder: is the supposedly immanent planetary collapse of capitalism something to be feared or is it something which you look forward to as the final proof that you were right all along, goddamnit?

how is it "economic millenarianism" to say that the u.s., by any normative theory, is headed toward a serious economic depression and eclipse by other capitalist powers???

ALSO, imminent collapse of u.s. economy does not necessarily entail collapse of planetary capitalism -- though it very well may OR, again, perhaps u.s. will drag rest of the world down with it in a desperate world war for control of oil and other key resources (i.e., the real commodities that back the dollar)

in any case, i both fear and would welcome the day that u.s. economy collapses

i fear the day because i realize how materially cushy my american life has been, and not sure if i'd be able to cope with the pain of prolonged economic depression and turmoil

i also fear being economically dominated by other parts of the world -- though this fear is most likely irrational, i.e., much more likely that u.s. will simply revert to a second-rate but still developed economic power while retaining its military and technological primacy, at least in the near term (i.e., spanning next 50 years)

i.e., even if i subscribe in some ways to marxist criticisms of capitalism, and believe that capitalist elites are indeed my oppressors, i especially fear the rule of the elites of other countries, who will have very little pity for the barbarous american consumer-turn-pauper

i would welcome the day b/c i really don't give a fuck anyway and more or less disdain the way i and most others live

i also welcome the day b/c i think it may breed more solidarity on the streets, in the clubs with the 10-cent drink -- but this is probably incredibly naive! -- people will be isolated, bitter, ashamed -- dark dark days indeed -- maybe this is millenarianism?!?
 

vimothy

yurp
how is it "economic millenarianism" to say that the u.s., by any normative theory, is headed toward a serious economic depression and eclipse by other capitalist powers???

Surely you've just answered your own question.

ALSO, imminent collapse of u.s. economy does not necessarily entail collapse of planetary capitalism -- though it very well may OR, again, perhaps u.s. will drag rest of the world down with it in a desperate world war for control of oil and other key resources (i.e., the real commodities that back the dollar)

Yeah, perhaps the US will initiate a WW to desperately try to maintian its global hegemony, perhaps it will fire off nukes at random in an evil bid to destroy the whole world, perhaps - shmerhaps. I would be prepared to give more credance to this if it weren't so obvious that the US is incapable of maintianing the will to fight a Low Intensity Conflict in the Mid East in support of establishing a democracy, let alone going to war with everyone on the planet out of spite.

Anyway, I think that the collapse of US economy would be very bad for the rest of the world - it's one of the twin dynamos (along with China) of modern capitalism.

in any case, i both fear and would welcome the day that u.s. economy collapses

Well, yeah, that's what I thought.

i fear the day because i realize how materially cushy my american life has been, and not sure if i'd be able to cope with the pain of prolonged economic depression and turmoil

Think that your cushy American life has also left you dangerously short of the mark. If you want to experience life in an economic disaster - move to the third world. There's lots of places to choose from, and the beers always cheap! (Provided, of course, that they sell beer). But why do you think that people migrate from the third world in any case?

i also fear being economically dominated by other parts of the world -- though this fear is most likely irrational, i.e., much more likely that u.s. will simply revert to a second-rate but still developed economic power while retaining its military and technological primacy, at least in the near term (i.e., spanning next 50 years)

It's all interconnected - I don't think that the post-crash US will simply just become more like Belgium and then everything continues as before but without as many bullish Republicans starting wars they can't be arsed to finish.

i.e., even if i subscribe in some ways to marxist criticisms of capitalism, and believe that capitalist elites are indeed my oppressors, i especially fear the rule of the elites of other countries, who will have very little pity for the barbarous american consumer-turn-pauper

What?

i would welcome the day b/c i really don't give a fuck anyway and more or less disdain the way i and most others live

Stop listening to Rage Against the Machine?

i also welcome the day b/c i think it may breed more solidarity on the streets, in the clubs with the 10-cent drink -- but this is probably incredibly naive! -- people will be isolated, bitter, ashamed -- dark dark days indeed -- maybe this is millenarianism?!?

Won't it be great to be poor and hungry, oh the solidarity it will breed! Give me a break, if you want to experience that kind of life, go and tell your boss to fuck himself, throw away all your money and live on the streets, battling for every meal. Leave the rest of us out of it.
 

vimothy

yurp
Trad communism = "capitalism is inefficient, socialism is the better form of economic organisation"

New, post-communism = "actually, we're not happy with how efficient capitalism has turned out to be, or with how much wealth it's created; we'd rather live in socialist poverty, because it's more fulfilling"
 

vimothy

yurp
sorry, i read that as 'ill-informed bollocks'

Woa there, woa - don't baffle me with science, mate. There's only so much stuff I can take in one post. Start again, slowly: ill... informed... what?
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
sorry, i apologise, i took you off my ignore list for 5 minutes.

don't worry, all's back to normal- resume your casual racism, and foolish generalisations
 
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