Virginia Gun Massacre

Guybrush

Dittohead
Here's an interesting piece on porn by a woman/phd in philosophy/dissensian/etc (?!):

http://www.cinestatic.com/infinitethought/#1384357953656738202

Although I’m sympathetic towards the writer’s contentions, that piece seems grounded in a very constricted view of what makes for good pornography: contemporary porn as a truncated and cheapened version of the glorious, multipolar sexual act. It is undeniably so, but this mutilation occurs whichever aspects of it the director chooses to focus on. Because of this, you could argue (and I do) that it’s only natural that the essentials—the in-and-out—get the the lion’s share of the attention, not the least as every gag and giggle is a potential boner-botcher. Many filmmakers whine about their never being able to portray unembellished copulation on screen, as all the other scenes, supposedly, would be dwarfed by it. Perhaps the moral of that is that not all everyday things can be portrayed on the white screen with the same ease with which they occur in real life (see: emptying one’s bowels).
 
That post by Nina is actually about Lovecraft and Kant, the limits of knowledge, and transcendental horror; as such, it is entirely relevant to the Critiques of Science thread.

But I'm sure, perhaps, you meant this post instead, Towards A Humanist Pornography.

" ... less howling, more giggling." LOL!

As Nina writes,

"A recent collection of silent pornographic films mostly made in France between 1905 and 1930 and collected by French director Michael Reilhac as The Good Old Naughty Days, astonishes and appeals for several reasons. The first thing you notice is the sheer level of silliness on show: sex isn't just a succession of grim orgasms and the parading of physical prowess, but something closer to slapstick and vaudeville. Men pretend to be statues of fauns for curious women to tickle; two seamstresses fall into a fit of giggles as their over-excited boss falls off the bed; a bawdy waitress serves a series of sexually-inspired meals to a man dressed as a musketeer before joining him for 'dessert'. This kind of theatrical role-play pre-empts many of the clichés of contemporary pornography, of course: nuns, school-mistresses, the 'peeping tom' motif, and so on. But the beauty of these early short films lies in the details, the laughter of its participants and the sheer variety of the bodies on parade: the unconventionally attractive mingle with the genuinely pretty; large posteriors squish overjoyed little men ..."

Yes, and this form of film porn [whether simulated or unsimulated] actually continued right up to the late-1960s/early-1970s [even in European art-cinema eg Felini's Amarcord or Pasolini's Decameron], from 1974], before the onset of le passion du real in the form of banal porn and its ideological cousin, Reality TV. As Nina shows, a certain symbolic and fantasmatic distance was evident in early hard-core pornography. Such films may indeed have been graphically explicit, but the narrative frame which provided the basis (even if often mere pretext) for predictable sexual encounters was invariably ridiculously un-realistic, idiotic, stereotypical, stupidly comical, analogous to the 18th century commedia del'arte in which the actors explicitly do not play "real" people, but simple one-dimensional types - the Miser, the Cuckold Husband, the Promiscuous Wife, the examples Nina mentions above. It could be said that such a compulsion to render the narrative comical is actually a healthy gesture of respect: everything may be shown, the images may be grapgic, but exactly for that reason the participants want to make it clear that it's all one big silly joke, that the actors are not really (viscerally) engaged.

So what happened, why the move to today's visceral, brutal banality and the cult of le passion du real?

"From the 1950s, social psychology varies endlessly the motif of how, in public life, we are all "wearing masks," adopting idenities which obfuscate our true selves. However, wearing a mask can be a strange thing: sometimes, more often than we tend to believe, there is more truth in the mask than in what we assume to be our "real self." Recall the proverbial impotent shy person who, while playing the cyberspace interactive game, adopts the screen identity of a sadistic murderer and irresistible seducer - it is all too simple to say that this identity is just an imaginary supplement, a temporary escape from his real life impotence. The point is rather that, since he knows that the cyberspace interactive game is "just a game," he can "show his true self," do things he would never have done in real life interactions - in the guise of a fiction, the truth about himself is articulated."==Zizek.

Today's pornography, as with Reality TV, in its eagerness to "get real", to abolish the place of appearance, falsely obfuscates the line that separates fiction from "reality": it is all still fiction, all still staged, all the players are still acting, even when playing themselves, all their behaviour now reduced to the most brutish, flat, and cynical of social conventions. [And this practice has ruined the European art film: movies like Patrice Chereau's Intimacy and Lars von Trier's Idiots crudely attempt to combine the "serious" narrative cinema with the "hardcore" depiction of sex].

It seems, though, that porn, whether underground or mainstream, did not suddenly jump from the (modernist) former to the (postmodernist) latter: there was also a transitional narrative form, very prominent in the 1970s [and now taken for granted in Hollywood as elsewhere] even as the Emmanueles and Deep Throats leeched there way to the surface: soft-porn that was framed by a moral narrative, usually in the form of vengence/revenge, reflecting a token acknowledgement of feminism's contemporaneous influence, but which actually was crucial in legitimising the move to the present "getting real" porn pathology. Characteristic of this genre, examples of which include Salon Kitty, Catherine & Co, is that the sex is portrayed "realistically" but the women get even, exact some form of retribution on their sexual oppressors, for the indignities caused, the latter ironically justifying the films' soft-porn in the cause of "getting real" ...

Addendum: Forgot to mention the most famous and notorious of the transitional movies above, soft-porn in the cause of realism, Bertolucci's Last Tango In Paris [Marlon Brando is not killed by Maria Schneider in the film's, er, climax, for reasons of sexual oppression, but for reasons of class, rendering the film pro-porn and anti-feminist despite critics claims to the contrary. Indeed, one of the only genuinely anti-pornographic films of the past decade was Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut (ironically, a number of scenes from the film were censored/digitally airbrushed in the U.S. release of the film on pornographic grounds!), unflinching in its dispassionate analysis and portrayal of the destructivenes of patriarchal sexuality under the seamless ideology of late, post-feminist capitalism.
 
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Guybrush

Dittohead
Yes, and this form of film porn [whether simulated or unsimulated] actually continued right up to the late-1960s/early-1970s [even in European art-cinema eg Felini's Amarcord or Pasolini's Decameron], from 1974], before the onset of le passion du real in the form of banal porn and its ideological cousin, Reality TV.

I love Decameron, but it’s not porn. I don’t view porn as a modern, degenerated version of erotic cinema, but rather as a phenomenon in its own right: an attempt to isolate the reproductive instincts, refine them, and amplify them beyond parody. That infamous line in Bloodhound Gang’s «Bad Touch», was icky because it was true:

You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel
 
... I don’t view porn as a modern, degenerated version of erotic cinema, but rather as a phenomenon in its own right

A phenomenon in its own right? Something which "naturally" [or unproblematically] just - suddenly - appeared, therefore rendering it legitimate and autonomously "authentic"? And not as a necrotic - ego-reaffirming - refuge from the ubiquity of the quotidian virtual [of contemporary capital]? Completely independent - free - from all historical and cultural context?

... an attempt to isolate the reproductive instincts, refine them, and amplify them beyond parody. That infamous line in Bloodhound Gang’s «Bad Touch», was icky because it was true:

You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel

Discovery Channel being the last word on animal sexuality, of course. "Getting real" is aping this, a simulation of a simulation? LOL. [More like patriarchy's last stand - having lost its symbolic authority - appealing to a fetishised, anthropomorphised "nature" to reproduce its hegemonic pathology.]
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
Discovery Channel being the last word on animal sexuality, of course. "Getting real" is aping this, a simulation of a simulation? LOL. [More like patriarchy's last stand - having lost its symbolic authority - appealing to a fetishised, anthropomorphised "nature" to reproduce its hegemonic pathology.]

Your «simulation of a simulation» idea makes a lot of sense—as does the analogies to reality TV earlier—so I will retract my opinion about their supposedly portraying some pure, animalistic form of sexuality. Rather, I think the gradual coarsening of porn is due to a very simple logic, prevalent in most art, and ultimately always a sure-fire cul-de-sac: maximalism.

A phenomenon in its own right? Something which "naturally" [or unproblematically] just - suddenly - appeared, therefore rendering it legitimate and autonomously "authentic"? And not as a necrotic - ego-reaffirming - refuge from the ubiquity of the quotidian virtual [of contemporary capital]? Completely independent - free - from all historical and cultural context?

Rhetorical questions galore here, and naturally I don’t believe for a second that it developed out-of-the-blue, free of historical context. However, that is not to say that it cannot be viewed as a phenomenon in its own right. A comparison with musical genres is in order here. They, too, can never be demarcated entirely, but that does not deter us from contending that different genres sometimes are different beasts—so different as to warrant talk about them as different phenomena. Bringing up the lineage from Ray Charles et al. when speaking about DJ Tiësto is to dismiss what makes stadium-trance a development spawned by our time, even though a hereditary line could possibly be argued for.

To continue the musical comparison. You could make an analogy between the two children of the 70s, porn and disco (the glitzy studio productions [with well-paid professionals providing the backbone, (comparatively) characterised by eccentricity and experimental lust]), and how they mutated in similar ways, morphing into their 00s cousins, gonzo and techno/house/etc. (aspirations towards authenticity; DIY aesthetics; focus on the essentials, scraping everything that distracts from them [that one repetitive loop (techno), the closed-up in-and-out (porn)]). You could throw ostentatiousness/loudness into the mix, too, I guess. All due to that evil, but oh so irresistible, foe called maximalism.
 
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Gavin

booty bass intellectual
(aspirations towards authenticity; DIY aesthetics; focus on the essentials, scraping everything that distracts from them [that one repetitive loop (techno), the closed-up in-and-out (porn)]).

Sounds more like minimalism to me... Perhaps closer to the problem? Porn strips out the "inessential" leaving only the "real" act (which is of course not "the real" but posits itself as such).
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
Sounds more like minimalism to me... Perhaps closer to the problem? Porn strips out the "inessential" leaving only the "real" act (which is of course not "the real" but posits itself as such).

You are right. But there is also maximalism at work: witness how the intricate drumplay in disco gradually turned into the not only stripped down, but also more accentuated drums in modern dance music («I Feel Love»→«LFO»→«Mouth to Mouth»). A parallel with porn’s increased obsession with intrusive close-up shots, perhaps.

A question: if the porn «real» is in fact not at all real, what is?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Of course it's "real". Why does everyone here have an obsession with calling patently real things 'unreal' and patently unreal things 'real' (or, indeed, 'hyper-real' etc.)?
If it's real footage of real people having real sex, then it's real in my book. Doesn't mean it's necessarily an accurate reflection of what normal (i.e. recreational!) sex is like for most people - because most couples aren't performing for a camera, for one thing. But then, what do I know, dirty empiricist that I am...
 

dHarry

Well-known member
Of course it's "real". Why does everyone here have an obsession with calling patently real things 'unreal' and patently unreal things 'real' (or, indeed, 'hyper-real' etc.)?
If it's real footage of real people having real sex, then it's real in my book.
Is a postmodernist straw man* claiming that the chair he's sitting on isn't real again? Tsk.

It's not real in precisely the way that the Discovery Channel's nature isn't nature. Of course something had to happen to to be filmed; but that something was written, scripted, lit, acted, framed, shot, edited, soundtracked etc. to produce a highly codified cultural product. I would have thought that this was a fairly banal observation. You may as well claim that Star Wars is real - they were real actors, on real studio sets, in a real film weren't they? Does that make SW is the reality of space warfare a long time ago in a galaxy far away? As Chris Marker's Sans Soleil puts it, re the guy who electronically treats/distorts news footage: he is making the "real" overtly unreal to point out how it wasn't real in the first place.

*just for the record - and maybe this deserves a thread of its own, but this thread is about as derailed as threads get anyhow - most continental thinkers bandied about around here both by adherents or detractors are/were highly individual thinkers/writers with major theoretical differences between them, who are/were engaged with different aspects of an ongoing engagement with and development of philosophy, sociology, psychoanalysis and attendant theories of the self, politics etc. Only Baudrillard and Lyotard as far as I remember (and maybe Foucault?) have actually used the term postmodernism, and then only to diagnose the post-WW2 socio-cultural climate. Not one would have characterised him/herself as a postmodernist, to my knowledge; nor has any of them claimed that science is some fictitious/textual practice without any internal validity or relationship with the world. These spurious claims are good only for broadsheet dismissals of them in the name of a tediously-invoked common sense (another straw man). To take one example, Deleuze tried to develop an philosophy of immanence that would turn Platonism on its head, and using a combination of Kant, Spinoza, Nietzche, Marx, and Bergson tried to conceptualise the conditions for the production of the new in the world, whether physically, politically, artistically, or whatever. He was perfectly well aware of the nature and role of science, and in fact described himself as an empiricist, albeit in an idiosyncratic way. Indeed Sokal and Bricmont had to dishonestly and selectively quote from him to "demonstrate" his so-called fashionable nonsense. Just a few examples of issues Deleuze's thought engages with:
http://www.shaviro.com/Blog/
http://www.upress.umn.edu/excerpts/Deleuze.html
http://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com/
http://accursedshare.blogspot.com/search/label/Deleuze
</end of rant>
 
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Guybrush

Dittohead
... this thread is about as derailed as threads get anyhow ...

Don’t despair: the grand conclusion is nigh! What we are getting at, of course, is that had only Cho been a good boy and indulged himself in stupendous porn consumption, and the occasional virtual ultra-violence session, none of this would have happened. Simple as algebra.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well perhaps a better way of expressing it would be to say that although porn is obviously a document of real sex, it's clearly nothing like a documentary of realistic sex? By which I mean, an accurate reflection of what sex is like for most people.

Edit: just the same way that Premiership footballers being paid vast sums of money to play a match that's watched by millions of spectators around the world via satellite is still real football, even though it's obviously very different from some amateurs having a kickaround in the park on a Saturday afternoon, right?

As far as postmodernist/continental philosophy goes, I think the biggest problem I have with it is that it's seemingly impossible to get any two people to agree on what any given aspect of it means, with the result that any given criticism of it can be met with claims of a 'straw man' (a phrase I'm starting to become heartily sick of on this forum, although I've used it myself several times) and the explanation that no, that's not what I/we/Baudrillard (etc.) think(s) at all...

Don’t despair: the grand conclusion is nigh! What we are getting at, of course, is that had only Cho been a good boy and indulged himself in stupendous porn consumption, and the occasional virtual ultra-violence session, none of this would have happened. Simple as algebra.

Just think of the carnage he could have committed with a plasma gun and a Quad Damage power-up...KILLING SPREE!!! :( :( :(
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
"It's not real in precisely the way that the Discovery Channel's nature isn't nature. Of course something had to happen to to be filmed; but that something was written, scripted, lit, acted, framed, shot, edited, soundtracked etc. to produce a highly codified cultural product. I would have thought that this was a fairly banal observation. You may as well claim that Star Wars is real - they were real actors, on real studio sets, in a real film weren't they? Does that make SW is the reality of space warfare a long time ago in a galaxy far away? As Chris Marker's Sans Soleil puts it, re the guy who electronically treats/distorts news footage: he is making the "real" overtly unreal to point out how it wasn't real in the first place."
So how would someone finding some non-existent arguments for something that was never said "very compelling" fit in to this? Is that an example of hyper-reality or just the Blondie leading the blind?
 

dHarry

Well-known member
So how would someone finding some non-existent arguments for something that was never said "very compelling" fit in to this? Is that an example of hyper-reality or just the Blondie leading the blind?
Seemed like the real thing, but I was so blind, mucho mistrust, love's gone behind.
 
[Quoting from a post in another thread]

"Indeed Sokal and Bricmont had to dishonestly and selectively quote from him to "demonstrate" his so-called fashionable nonsense."

And, also relevant to recent exchanges on this thread, on the Critiques of Science thread, and on the Baudrillard thread, are these erudite and compelling remarks from Larvel Subjects:

I do not think Bricmont is a credible source in philosophy of science, sociology of science, or postmodernism. Indeed, I think of Sokal and Bricmont as crypto-Platonists, tied to their own theological vision, by virtue of their ahistorical, non-sociological conception of science. That aside, I suspect that you wouldn’t have your science in its extant form at all without Spinoza and other like-minded theological thinkers.

[ ... ]

My view that Bricmont and Sokal are not credible sources has nothing to do with Marxism or French Marxism (incidentally, Sokal is a Marxist and one of the primary reasons he undertook his critique was that he believed postmodernism is undermining leftist political engagement), and everything to do with the fact that they attribute claims to others that those thinkers are not making and are generally very poor readers of the texts they seek to criticize. I’d go one step further and say that Sokal, despite being a scientist, has a rather facile understanding of what science is and what is at stake in science studies, confusing analysis of the social practices and history of science with a nihilistic skepticism that somehow denies the reality of scientific findings. Quoting things out of context and not taking the time to determine what the author himself is attempting to argue are not good reading practices. Sokal and Bricmont read the texts of their targets a bit like fundamentalist Christians read the Bible by quoting selective passages and never paying attention to the context in which these passages occur and the history of the text and how it was produced. They find something that vaguely says what they want it to say, quote it out of context, and say “see how full of nonsense these philosophers are and look at how they’re trying to undermine science!” There are plenty of critiques to be had of postmodern thinkers. If you had eyes to see you would discover that this blog often offers such critiques and that you’ll find them all over the blogosphere on blogs devoted primarily to French thinkers and Critical Theorists, but the manner in which Sokal and Bricmont proceed is neither honest, nor accurate. Now if you wish to have a serious discussion about these matters you can sit down and do the requisite work and read these figures, acquaint yourself with their arguments, and then we can talk.

I’m sorry that I disappoint you by not swallowing your simplistic and inaccurate reductivist readings of a figure like Spinoza or having knee-jerk reactions like yourself whenever a word like “God” is used. Some of us take the time to actually pay attention to how words are being used and how concepts are being deployed, rather than twitching the moment we hear a word that we’re accustomed to hearing used in a different way. Some of us take the time to read what is actually said, rather than assuming we know what is being said from the title of a chapter.​
 
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