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Thread: xenakis

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    is that cos they printed a lot at the time, or cos they're bad (the cage one is horrible) ?
    I actually think HPSCHD is quite enjoyable for the concept alone, it's just so wonderfully ridiculous. Not that I hear it often (if ever) of course, and I'm certainly glad I didn't pay more than 10 kr. (that's £1) for it, but it's just pre-empting some of the V/Vm cod-avant garde so perfectly.

    Anyway, I doub't any electro-acoustic avant garde will ever be cheap simply because it's bad. But maybe if it's bad and everybody knows it.

    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    3/ what about Morton Subotnik after Silver Apples and Wild Bulls he's got a shit load of stuff in the 80s, that goes quite cheap i've noticed
    I've only got A Sky of Cloudless Sulphur, which is nice, but nowhere near as mindmelting. Sounds much more "serious" I'd say, with less of SAotM and WBs mayhem.

    As for odd gems, I recommend Gunnar Møller Pedersens Et Lydår if you ever get near it. Has moments of beautyful, if completely non-melodic, proto-glitch/idyllitronica.

  2. #17
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    I was lucky enough to see Parmegiani play some of his music at the Autechre-curated All Tomorrows Parties - he was a dapper little geezer in a cardigan who worked the mixing desk in the centre of the upstairs room while the stage was totally empty - v. disorientating, esp. when the music (which was often quite harsh, and fequently sounded like a ball being bounced) was played through the quadrophonic speaker system - Bernie P seemed very aware abt space/volume 'issues' - a magical hour


    Ashley's 'Automatic Writing' was the starting point (sample source?) for one particular Nurse With Wound alb, but I can't remember which one

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzbo

    Ashley's 'Automatic Writing' was the starting point (sample source?) for one particular Nurse With Wound alb, but I can't remember which one

    NWW "A Missing Sense".
    "Automatic Writing" was Stapleton favorite LP to listen while on LSD.

    ciao da francesco

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by francesco
    I was totally wrong, thanks JWD for the info!
    Where did you get it?
    Hmm well I might be totally wrong!

    But I remembered it from reading through some stuff I printed off the web which documented Xenakis' works & variations. This ISN'T what I printed out but it has much the same info:

    http://home.wanadoo.nl/eli.ichie/framesx.html

    ie. under Concret PH it credits the original yr as 1958 and then continues to say: "The tape was created at GRM (Groupe de Recherches Musicales) in Paris, France and was played, together with Varèse's Poème électronique inside the Philips pavillion, during the World Fair in Brussels. A revised version of the piece was made in 1968 (Concret PH II)"

    This joint is pretty much the place to be for Xenakis info.

    Jon

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    it's the vinyl original on Nonesuch, Electro-Acoustic Works

    the pieces are:
    diamorphoses II/bohor 1/concret ph II/orient-occident III

    sounded good in the store, but the 12 buck price tag seemed oddly low

    hey, anyone know if there are like diamorphoses I, orient-occident 1 and II, conceret ph I, bohor 2, 3,4 etc?
    the one with the blue graphic on the cover. yeah get that its extremely good, ive seen it rated highly by the real experts too!

    la legende d'eer would be my favourite xenakis record, that is literally overpowering/wonderful/mind-blowing.

    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    at the risk of inundation/system overload, some further questions for the avant-classical massif:

    1/ certain records go real cheap i've found -- certain Varese albums, Cage's HPSCHD (nonesuch) -- whereas certain titles by stockhausen or xenakis are selling for 50 dollars plus in Other Music, up on the wall.

    is that cos they printed a lot at the time, or cos they're bad (the cage one is horrible) ?
    theres a certain snobbery attached to some labels wergo/phillips/inagrm. people can favour original european editions. theres a swathe of records that crop up a great deal, often cos they (freakishly) must have recieved a good distribution at the time. as such if theyre more common, they can be cheaper. its often NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER OF QUALITY. sometimes theyre the best ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    2/ what do we think of luigi nono? he seems kinda interesting, political avant-classical, rabid communist right? he's another one i've picked up lots of bits reasonably priced
    curiously if the records are electronic people dont tend to be interested in them. guilty of this myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    3/ what about Morton Subotnik after Silver Apples and Wild Bulls he's got a shit load of stuff in the 80s, that goes quite cheap i've noticed
    again a lot of people bought silver apples at the time. lots of copies in circulation. "touch" is the one with morton. i have "sidewinder" too which is excellent.

    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    4/ what do we reckon on Meredith Monk then?
    i had "dolmen music" on lovely (a really underrated label) and i got rid of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    5/ Robert Ashley?
    again on lovely, which is a new york label, which makes nuff sense given your geography. i have "private parts". he's a lesser figure like Meredith Monk. Gordon Mumma of that crew is probably the most serious dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    6/ Annea Lockwood?
    pass

    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    7/ charles wuorinen?
    seen his stuff about. but never been tempted to pick any up.

    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    8/ okay, finally, doesn anyone actually enjoy the stuff on that label CTI (is that right? you know the one i mean, any road, peter maxwell davies up the wazoo). Cos that stuff goes for like 4 dollars a pop, the only thing lower on the desirability front is Eastern Bloc post=war composers.... i quite like the covers but stuff that's avant but uses conventional orchestras seems like the worst of both worlds, somehow
    CTI. sighs with feigned exhaustaion. there are some cool harry partch records on it. i suspect iueke may know some good other ones, but its a bit of a wasteland. too orchestral like you say (see comments above about use of electronics)

    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    yrs
    the canny shopper

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger
    avant-classical massif:
    Hello!

    1/ certain records go real cheap i've found -- certain Varese albums, Cage's HPSCHD (nonesuch) -- whereas certain titles by stockhausen or xenakis are selling for 50 dollars plus in Other Music, up on the wall.
    One reason might be that Stockhausen recordings from his own label are stupidly expensive in the first place - I know that his CDs go for £40-50rrp. Price proportional to ego. There's also more of a cult market outside pure avant classical circles for Stockhausen and Xenakis (I bet the same goes for early Glass vinyl, say) than there is for giant 'happenings' like HPSCHD. Varese is just easy and cheap to buy anywhere - you can get the complete works for about £20 on CD in any HMV.


    4/ what do we reckon on Meredith Monk then?
    Love love love love love. Atlas is one of my favourite recordings, although they chopped out a couple of the nicest bits from it. Try to find things that are purely vocal - she and her group do amazing things with their voices, but when she puts a keyboard or instrumental backing to it, it can sound a bit naff. Her voice stuff is stunning, a lot of it comes out of group improvisation with different effects, but her instrumental writing is really simplistic - you just have to listen past it.

    Eastern Bloc post=war composers.... i quite like the covers but stuff that's avant but uses conventional orchestras seems like the worst of both worlds, somehow
    I'd happily find a home for all that Some of it is poor, but there's a lot of forgotten music in there.

    Which brings me to a question. Where are the best places in London to find the sort of vinyl Simon's talking about here? I was in Camden the other day and tried MVE there but it was rubbish. The classical CD market is a) too expensive and b) doesn't bother reissuing most of this sort of stuff.

  7. #22
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    i think thats about right price wise.

    it's a reissue compilation, all the pieces were released previously (Erato, BAM) so no collector interest. whats importent here is the quality of the pressing - and sadly i can't remember.

    anyway - masterful comps.

    my current fave electroacoustic composers:
    Almuro
    Ivo malec
    Paul Boisselet
    Pietro Grossi

  8. #23
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    Annea Lockwood - New Zealand composer. She's done a lot of work with sound art type things. Most of her electronic pieces use source sounds as they are, rather than processed, and they often use sounds of the body - heart beats, orgasms, etc. I heard a recording of Sound Map of the Hudson River a while ago (might have been on Resonance), which was put together from the sounds of ships. Very evocative, and it was more than just a field recording - I think things had been carefully tweaked so that it sounded composed, but also sounded as though it could actually happen, as though all these foghorns really did sound in regular rhythms, kind of magic realism.

    Most of what she does is electroacoustic, but some pieces from the 1990s were for conventional ensembles. I don't know what any of these are like though.

  9. #24
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    Default ta massif

    thanks for all the tips and hints, people

    annea lockwood -- my mate paul oldfield had the world of glass one back in the 80s, music from the sonorities of glass being struck and scraped .... forgot about her altogether until the Billboard Book of Progressive Music came into my life and she's got several CDs listed in there, including Sound Map of the Hudson Riverir -- the guy doing that Bilboard guide has a thing for environmental recordings and spatial ambience type stuff, which he counts as part of the progressive canon on acoucnt of groups like floyd etc using real-world sounds -- lots of unheard-of artists he cites doing this stuff through the 80s and 90s

    jwd, talking about kicking oneself for not picking up stuff. when it was cheap.. back in the 80s all this stuff was way dirt cheap, i really kick myself for not scooping it up. i can remember jumble sales and oxfams int he 80s with this stuff in, stockhausen etc. i guess people had originally bought it at the time it came out in the idea that it was 'improving' or 'cool' (especially in a city like oxford) and then two decades latter chucked out the only-played-once records... i did pick up some amazing bargains, a 21st siecle silver-cover as Woebot-tributed one by pierre henry (1 pound!!!!!) and, piece de resistance this one, a harry partch record for 75 p that's now worth a couple of hundred at least according to Music and Video Exchange. the only reason i knew who partch was because swordfishtrombones had come out and tom waits had talked about his love of partch.

    but there's so much more i could have scooped up, curses curses...

    charles wuorinen, i have time's encomium, it's pretty cool, done on a buchla i think. a minor effort utlimately

    oh yeah, apart from electronic stuff, the avant-classical things i like the most tend to be vocal based -- like ligeti, not that thats the only stuff he did of course but yeah, that kind of alien chorale thing tears shit up

    avant-classical in London
    --there's a store on that road that intersects with Berwick Street, i forget the name of the road or the place, it's a big classical vinyl store, in the basement they have a shitload of avant and electronic, but it is priced by people who know what it's worth yagetme

    -- the classical specialist M&V excahnge on notting hill has a lot of stuff but they know what it's worth too, but you can always sell your freebies/oldcrap for exchange tokens to dull the pain

    one more question -- what do folk think of music that's composed on computers and a/ done with electronics b/ done with orchestras . i've not heard any of this stuff

  10. #25
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    A lot of Xenakis' music was composed using a computer - it was the only way he could go through all the probability calculations he wanted to use.

    Other than that, there's a string quartet that I've heard that was composed entirely by computer. I think this goes back to the 60s, when these sorts of experiments would go on at Bell Labs and so on. It used a piece of software that was designed to compose like Bach - so it relied a great deal on musicological analysis of Bach's music, which was statistically filtered to create a compositional process. It's obviously very strange, because it sounds sort of like Bach, but not enough so that you really believe it is, and it didn't really have the kind of flow that you'd expect a human composition to have. An interesting experiment, and maybe a good source for new ideas, but as a whole I don't think it really worked.

  11. #26
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    I was lucky enough to see Parmegiani play some of his music at the Autechre-curated All Tomorrows Parties - he was a dapper little geezer in a cardigan who worked the mixing desk in the centre of the upstairs room while the stage was totally empty - v. disorientating, esp. when the music (which was often quite harsh, and fequently sounded like a ball being bounced) was played through the quadrophonic speaker system - Bernie P seemed very aware abt space/volume 'issues' - a magical hour
    That was weird that, we spent an hour trying to figure out if it had actually started.

    The MVE classical shop is quite good I reckon, there's loads of interesting looking records, albeit quite highly priced. They are very finickity about quality though, so often if something is marked "fair" it's actually pretty damn spanking new.

    I walk through the shop literally every day to clock in, so if anyone wants me to root through the racks it's easy enough.

  12. #27
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    I'm just waiting on a couple of cheques, but when they come in I shall hie me over to Notting Hill. Cheers!

  13. #28
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    this transcript is pretty interesting if you haven't read it before:

    XENAKIS, REYNOLDS, LANSKY, AND MÂCHE DISCUSS COMPUTER MUSIC
    Moderated by Thanassis Rikakis

    http://www.rogerreynolds.com/xenakis1.html

  14. #29
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    The classical rec shop in Soho mentioned by blissblogger is called Harold Moores - they now have upstairs Mole Jazz, formerly in Kings Cross, another kind of musty trad institution that cld, back in the day, turn up the odd vinyl gem

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    bliss --- HPSCHD was reissued last year by EMF (the same label that issued the xenakis CD) and its a piece for 'amplified' harpischords and machines (sinewave tones) -- it was derived from an statistical analysis of mozart's music (which ties with yr other question) and actually similar to metal machine music, in that there is a minimalist maximalism to the thing (on the CD its divided into exact 10 min tracks vs 16 mins of MMM); it's like 'persepolis' too -- a large event bungled onto disc, its kind of dodgy, in that sense. The notes are ok and it comes in this pack of 16 cards and if you turn it upside and join it up you get the psych-looking poster adv the first performance.

    tapes + orchestras - check out some of the pieces like berio's 'laborintus II', cage's 'roaratorio' (irish fiddles instead of orchestra actually but its my fave cage on disc by far), richard barrett's 'opening of the mouth' (Cd wz issued in 2000) which has this track of electronic tape in the middle of it and it works; it propels the ensemble along, sounds like it belongs among the acoustic ensemble...and that's the thing at other times electronics are used it sounds like decoration. I actually prefer Kontakte as a tape piece, I don't think the perc/piano adds much that we didn't already know. When I heard it as a tape only piece the 'moments' and the transitions are felt (whereas in some grime and hip-hop anything acoustic seems to really stand out among the electronic framework).

    go to UBU web -- kagel kind of talks abt it in the notes to 'acustica', which you can d/l. Its worth it, i think.

    http://www.ubu.com/sound/kagel01.html

    there's also: rob ashley's wolfman http://www.ubu.com/sound/ashley.html


    re: luigi nono -- there is this old history of classical that I got from my local library and surprise it only goes up to 1920 or something and right at the back there's this essay by cornelius cardew, written in the early 60s, where he covers the current stuff and he basically talks abt boulez, stockhausen and nono which wz a surprise bcz nono isn't really talked abt much these days.

    But then he dealt he dealt with opera and electronics (things that ppl who like 'weirdo' avant-garde seem to hate and love) but he radically changed style in the 80s in favour of this morton feldman-esque (its described like that but its not really from the one piece on mantaigne that I have, he still does look at electronics and speaker ambience).

    london shops -- I went to that classical shop in berwick street, you could get an ok bargain as they do a sale on certain LPs. also sound 323, they do a second hand list every two weeks; some classical avant-garde among that.

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