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Thread: Pointless But It Does My Head In

  1. #2656
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    Quote Originally Posted by e/y View Post
    the English FA / FIFA / poppy thing. are these people for real?
    It's very recent, this mania. England have played in November before, no poppies and no fuss.
    Edit: in fact, two years ago they played brazil in Qatar for loads of money and didn't wear poppies and no one cared.

    But now it's evrywhere. All prem clubs wear shirts with poppies on in the first weeks of november, too. Man u tried not to last year and got dog's abuse from the right wing press.

    It's a real shame that a symbol meant to honour the dead is now a mandatory display of grief and solidarity for people fighting wars the majority of the country doesn't support.

    I can't help but feel it means less as a result but I'm not sure how you would demonstrate that and what that, in turn, would mean.
    Last edited by hucks; 09-11-2011 at 05:19 PM.

  2. #2657
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    Quote Originally Posted by hucks View Post
    It's a real shame that a symbol meant to honour the dead is now a mandatory display of grief and solidarity for people fighting wars the majority of the country doesn't support.
    well put.

    on the same topic, today's Fiver: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...an-ibrahimovic
    Quote Originally Posted by juanroberto View Post
    how many threads have you had shut down?

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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Anyway, mould. Used to have quite a lot in a place I lived in, and I seem to remember ventilation was the key to keeping it under control. But it didn't work completely :/
    Yeah, the mold in my room in this flat does my head.

    Ventilation is a good idea but our landlords thought it would be cool to get some cheap losers to paint the windows, and mine has been stuck shut for a few months now.

    Talked to him about twice already but fuck it if anything will get done.

    I hate this building, can't wait to move somewhere cooler in January.

  4. #2659
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    You should get some better friends. Or come to one of mine, they're a blast.

    Edit: don't see how it's even "borderline" racist though, as far as I can see he doesn't mention race or anything that's even connected with race - and we all know by now that the rioters came from a broad cross-secion of ethnic backgrounds...
    Ha - no, I think it's childhood disgust at my parents' dinner parties - it's the format rather than the people. If you call it 'having people round for dinner', I'm there; the instant dps are mentioned (ahem), I'm outta there.

    Well, yes and no. It was more 'racialised' than 'racist', I should have said. But the article comes perilously close to ridiculing what is perceived (and I know it's not true, it's a stereotype, but I've never seen Brooker say anything that shows he's not working with stereotypes in this area, and i've read a lot of his stuff) as black culture/black fashion. Plus, non-white people are disproportionately poor in the UK (as most others), so, while it was in no way a race riot, but a poverty riot, then that will mean that non-white people are disproportionately represented in what happened.

    And, specifically, the violence in Hackney resulted immediately from two (?) black guys being ridiculously stop-searched, and obv there was the racialised context of what happened in Tottenham - there was a strong element of reaction to societal racism in it, although yeah, more about poverty than race per se.

    And in Clapham it was definitely racialised, mainly cos Clapham is a particularly apartheid-ised part of London. (As - dear fuck, having been there the other week - is Dalston, but that's a side observation).

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    Quote Originally Posted by slowtrain View Post
    Yeah, the mold in my room in this flat does my head.

    Ventilation is a good idea but our landlords thought it would be cool to get some cheap losers to paint the windows, and mine has been stuck shut for a few months now.

    Talked to him about twice already but fuck it if anything will get done.

    I hate this building, can't wait to move somewhere cooler in January.
    Hm, that sucks. Sounds like the landlord is an asshole too...if you've only got to stick it out til January, then guess it's better to put up with it, cos I dont' think there is a quick fix without structural changes.

  6. #2661
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    The unnecessary aggressiveness of (some of) the police; encouraging sociopaths from their recruitment policy. Also (and I lost track of all the political minutiae of this) the inability of the police to standup to the government, even when they themselves were being threatened with (drastic) cutbacks. Drone mentality....

  7. #2662
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    Quote Originally Posted by e/y View Post
    the English FA / FIFA / poppy thing. are these people for real?
    In what sense though?

    The whole poppy thing is massively stupid and hypocritical. Firstly, it celebrates wars that were waged out of power politics, not any ideology of 'freedom' or whatever, from WWII (Britain quite happy not to intervene in Spanish Civil War) to Iraq; wars that sent the working class to die to protect the freedoms of the richer classes primarily;and this country doesn't give a shite about its returning soldiers anyways, as evidenced by the number homeless and in prison...once they outlive their use, they're on the scrapheap. absolute bollocks...if only FIFA had done this for the right reasons...

    if people do actually give a shit about the human beings involved in this, they'd give (more than a quid) to a veterans' charity or protest against this government.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 10-11-2011 at 08:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    In what sense though?
    bah, should have clarified: I find the stance of the English FA / (large element) of the press completely idiotic, in large part for the very reasons you stated.
    Quote Originally Posted by juanroberto View Post
    how many threads have you had shut down?

  9. #2664
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    Quote Originally Posted by e/y View Post
    bah, should have clarified: I find the stance of the English FA / (large element) of the press completely idiotic, in large part for the very reasons you stated.
    ah yeah, wasn't having a go at you, genuinely didn't know which point you were making.

    it is quite staggering though, isn't it, the devotion to a piece of plastic as though it makes things better/connotes respect in any meaningful way. Inevitably the EDL were protesting the Muslim conspiracy at FIFA....

  10. #2665
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Ha - no, I think it's childhood disgust at my parents' dinner parties - it's the format rather than the people. If you call it 'having people round for dinner', I'm there; the instant dps are mentioned (ahem), I'm outta there.
    Haha, fair enough, I guess the phrase has connotations...I just love cooking for people and some of my friends are pretty nifty in the kitchen too, doesn't really bother me whether it's explicitly billed as a 'dinner party' or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Well, yes and no. It was more 'racialised' than 'racist', I should have said. But the article comes perilously close to ridiculing what is perceived (and I know it's not true, it's a stereotype, but I've never seen Brooker say anything that shows he's not working with stereotypes in this area, and i've read a lot of his stuff) as black culture/black fashion.
    Well just because something is a stereotype, that doesn't mean it isn't also (to some extent) true. Black - and Asian - kids in London do tend to wear sports gear and trainers, don't they? As do working-class white kids. I guess it's less common among middle-class kids who of course are for the most part white.

    Even leaving that aside, though, I think there's a danger of falling into relativism here. As in, when middle-class people are mindless consumerists, that's deplorable and a result of the evil, all-pervasive influence of capitalism, &c. &c. But when urban teenagers (a large proportion of whom may be black) are mindless consumerists, it's just part of their culture, and for a white, middle-class journalist to talk about it is unacceptable, even 'borderline racist'. Let's not confuse trainer-fetishism among kids in certain London neighbourhoods with 'black culture' generally. That really would be racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    And, specifically, the violence in Hackney resulted immediately from two (?) black guys being ridiculously stop-searched, and obv there was the racialised context of what happened in Tottenham - there was a strong element of reaction to societal racism in it, although yeah, more about poverty than race per se.
    Yeah, this is all true, of course. I'd agree race wasn't the main thing but was nonetheless a big part of it.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 10-11-2011 at 10:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    ah yeah, wasn't having a go at you, genuinely didn't know which point you were making.

    it is quite staggering though, isn't it, the devotion to a piece of plastic as though it makes things better/connotes respect in any meaningful way. Inevitably the EDL were protesting the Muslim conspiracy at FIFA....
    Whatever happened to the old-fashioned notion that the best way to give to charity is to hand over your money to the good cause of your choice and then humbly keep quiet about it? There's something quite unpleasant about having to be so ostentatious about giving.
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  12. #2667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Even leaving that aside, though, I think there's a danger of falling into relativism here. As in, when middle-class people are mindless consumerists, that's deplorable and a result of the evil, all-pervasive influence of capitalism, &c. &c. But when urban teenagers (a large proportion of whom may be black) are mindless consumerists, it's just part of their culture, and for a white, middle-class journalist to talk about it is unacceptable, even 'borderline racist'. Let's not confuse trainer-fetishism among kids in certain London neighbourhoods with 'black culture' generally. That really would be racist.
    But that same journalist speaks about it with a kind of disdain I haven't seen him evince for other clothing fashions (even though he does do disdain well, as we all know), AND also this disdain somehow extends to MTV Cribs for some unapparent reason (white station it may be, but overwhelmingly that particular programme features black hip-hop and dancehall stars, no?). To me, he's laughing, knowingly or not, at what he sees as the 'excesses' of a culture the status of which in society is seen as non-white. There's a nasty undercurrent of disdain for (critically) what he seems to see as black youth culture, and its supposedly silly ways. It's the equivalent of rich people laughing at the nouveau riche - they're just not doing it right, with class!

    Plus, evidence mounting up, he chooses a very white show (Dallas) as some kind of absurd relative paragon of virtue. I mean, what the fuck, where did that even come from? I've watched Dallas, and what he says is ludicrous, as if the characters were deeply profound in some way. The examples he chooses, at the least, have not been very well thought through for their underlying connotations. Does that make him a racist? No. Does it make me suspicious that he harbours deeply unpleasant views under the jovial wit? Yes.

    This stuff is hella difficult to prove, which is the problem with classist/racist discourse. I saw someone describe the riots as being carried out by 'feral apes' the other day. Now, it's impossible to prove, but I dont' think he plucked the very specific term 'apes' out of the air. Of course Brooker's analysis is more subtle, but to me, pretty unsubtle still in its underlying political convictions. It just depresses me when the general societal view (not accusing you of this, just a general frustration) is that someone has to be David Harvey to be espousing views that come from a deeply questionable place, race-wise. It's an incredibly nuanced subject.

    Also, he doesn't mention the irony that it is those who are materially wealthy who are criticising those who aren't, for wanting more. I'm not excusing mindless consumerism from anyone or saying that it is part of anyone's culture, merely pointing out that it's very easy (and incredibly unfair) for those who have always had, to criticise the wish to have, for those who have (mostly) always been have-nots. Because there's a very different status attached to not having the ability to get material goods, which Brooker clearly has never known (bit of empathy would be welcome), that has to be taken into account from the standpoint of someone who has always had a certain living standard/purchase power. Of course these kids are 'playing within' consumerist rules, but they're just like any other 15/17 year old kids in that sense - very few have explicit political formulations at that age, or at least it seems to me that it's unlikely. Unrelated, but the way the tabloids were talking, something can only be protest if it is explicitly formulated as such, with treatises - which pretty much rules out any mass protest in history.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 10-11-2011 at 01:41 PM.

  13. #2668
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Whatever happened to the old-fashioned notion that the best way to give to charity is to hand over your money to the good cause of your choice and then humbly keep quiet about it? There's something quite unpleasant about having to be so ostentatious about giving.
    Don't even get me started on the third sector. Police yesterday were growing moustaches for 'Movember' - as my friend said, this made them look even more camp than usual - which is raising money (fine in itself) for the very sector that the people The police are relentlessly defending from legitimate protest (the government) are intent on crippling (by making so many functions that should be paid for by taxes, essentially privatised through outsourcing to the third sector, meaning that fundraising for charities is now more of a ultra-competitive nightmare than before, leading to some of these charities going to the wall).

    It's intellectually insulting, apart form anything else, but then so much to do with mainstream charities is. :/

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    "Unrelated, but the way the tabloids were talking, something can only be protest if it is explicitly formulated as such, with treatises - which pretty much rules out any mass protest in history."
    Yes, this seems to be a relatively new tactic from the right-wing media - there are no coherent and simply described list of demands so therefore we can dismiss the whole protest as a mindless rabble. Of course a list of demands is useful in many ways but not having one does not mean that a protest is unjustified or that it can simply be ignored as pointless.

  15. #2670
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    Yep, and in the riots it was even more ludicrous - 'things are shit and i'm going to do what i want cos i have little if anything to lose; treat me like shit and i will behave like it' was the general and valid message. And mostly they were bloody teenagers!

    All that said, having visited St Paul's last night, I think a movement towards a charter of sorts might be overdue (unless it's been done and i missed it). Seemed in danger of veering hugely off topic - ie the environment is well worth talking about, but it seems prudent to keep on the track of economic change at the moment. Else the message risks being unduly dissipated.

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