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Thread: Pointless But It Does My Head In

  1. #3451
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    Well, I dunno how much worse it is than the others eg Barclays and apartheid. They'll all do whatever it takes to maximise profits. And yep, deregulation is the problem, but even more than that, the lack of any regulation upon links between politicians and banks (or any other companies) that means corruption is endemic and there is no clear divide between government and big business (Boris Johnson's 10,000 from JCB looks almost quaint in this context).

    Presume you saw Dan Hancox's article on it: https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/q...is-not-a-brand
    Poor Leeds, is all I can say.
    And I love the interplay between those ads and Brexit - HSBC don't seem to care that they'll be alienating the will of the people...also that the 'something bigger' we're all part of is global capitalism.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 25-01-2019 at 09:19 AM.

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  3. #3452
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    I'm reminded of vimothy's line that "liberalism is woke capitalism". And of a joke -

    Conservatives: "It's fine that ten people own half the world's wealth."

    Socialists: "No it isn't."

    Liberals: "FIVE OF THOSE PEOPLE SHOULD BE WOMEN!!!"
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  5. #3453
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    Joke is fairly spot on. However, to cover all bases of the modern world, it would have to end with a misogynist comment about Hillary Clinton or Sheryl Sandberg that totally misses the point.

    Not 100% sure any more about what woke means, but Vimothy's line is certainly quotable.

  6. #3454
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    I think 'woke' was useful for about five minutes some six or seven years ago, when it meant, more or less, aware of big structural problems in society, particularly forms of prejudice and particularly racism. Then it got taken up by 9/11 truthers, flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers, the wackier end of the 'hotep' crowd and god knows who else and became a joke.

    As for liberalism, I'm not sure what it even really means, or if it means anything at all these days. I think most people are basically liberal when you get down to it, even though a day doesn't go by without people on both the left and the right tearing into it, and it seems to be on the retreat all over the world in the face of all kinds of radicalism and authoritarian populism. I expect even most Trump supporters in the USA, Brexit enthusiasts here and FN/AfD etc. voters elsewhere in Europe would broadly agree with the statement "I don't mind what anyone believes or gets up to as long as it doesn't negatively affect me or other people", and yet "liberal" to these people has become a curse word. I mean, I consider myself a liberal because what's the alternative? Being illiberal? Being authoritarian? But can you be socially liberal without also supporting neoliberal economics - the very system that's driving the inequality that's turning people against each other? Honest question, I have no idea.
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  7. #3455
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    this is a "pointless" thread, you two are making valid points and it must stop, thank you.

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  9. #3456
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    Ah OK, then debatable if liberals are woke, as they see things in terms of threats to individual liberty rather than more structurally.

    I take liberal in the modern sense to mean a philosophy based in individualism, along the lines of 'freedom from' rather than 'freedom to'. As such, it's understandable why it's a curseword, as it kinda pretends that there are no other prerequisites for living a good life than being free from the intrusions of others. Unfortunately, money exists.

    "can you be socially liberal without also supporting neoliberal economics" - I'd take being socially liberal as different from being "a liberal", as socialists (for example) are also socially liberal with caveats.
    The thing with neoliberal economics is that what it is theoretically, is very different from what it is practically - in its actual form, government intervention is at its foundation, as it allows some firms to act with relative impunity, knowing that they will be bailed out. So I'd imagine that many liberals would prefer the textbook version, to the practical demonstration.

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  11. #3457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    this is a "pointless" thread, you two are making valid points and it must stop, thank you.
    Don't worry, our tolerance for making valid points is very low, so it will pass soon.

    I think Brexit has redefined the idea of pointlessness for us.

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  13. #3458
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    I'd take being socially liberal as different from being "a liberal", as socialists (for example) are also socially liberal with caveats.
    Fairly substantial caveats, in some cases.

    mao.jpg
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  15. #3459
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    Well, I think we'll be here for a while if we list all the liberals who thought only some people had/have the right to be free from being killed or enslaved. Need to play the ideology here, not the (insane) man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Well, I think we'll be here for a while if we list all the liberals who thought only some people had/have the right to be free from being killed or enslaved. Need to play the ideology here, not the (insane) man.
    Oh well that principle's as old as the hills and predates liberalism by millennia. You know, how "Thou shalt not kill" really means "Thou shalt not kill other Hebrews", because two chapters later they're happily slaughtering the Midianites or whoever and it's all fine.
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  18. #3461
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    PBIDMHI: the use of the word "hipster" to refer to pretty much anything new and/or popular. My partner commented the other day that drinking water dispensers at stations are "the new hipster thing", as if people are meeting up in artisan kombucha bars in East London to compare tasting notes on the water taps at Oxford versus Peterborough. Meanwhile someone at work complained about somewhere being "full of hipster places". On prodding, he clarified that this meant Pret, Wasabi and Cafe Nero. FFS.

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  20. #3462
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    Related (but more endearingly naive than annoying) are people who disparage hipster coffee geeks on the assumption that they're the people ordering ever more elaborate concoctions of fruit syrup, crushed ice, chocolate and froth in Starbucks, because they basically aren't even aware of the whole other level where people worry that the pourover from their local cafe-slash-micro-roaster isn't going to fully express the varietal character of the single-estate Kenyan beans if they aren't using reverse-osmosis water.
    Last edited by Slothrop; 26-01-2019 at 12:56 PM.

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  22. #3463
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    'Fancy' coffees in Starbucks involving ice, whipped cream, fruit syrup etc. are for basic bitches.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 26-01-2019 at 04:15 PM.
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  23. #3464
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Presume you saw Dan Hancox's article on it: https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/q...is-not-a-brand
    A decent article, as you'd expect from Dan H, but isn't VICE carrying a piece on the evils of branding a bit like having an orthodox Marxist-Leninist broadside against capitalism in the Wall Street Journal?
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  25. #3465

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    in a big way.
    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

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