baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Yeah, it's an awfully white middle class thing to do isn't it... :p

yeah, i don't know any black or working class people who'd know how to use it, or indeed even be interested in class dynamics :rolleyes: Sorry, but that's not an opinion worthy of you ,Tea - it sounds like something someone once said to you and you thought sounded quite neat, so are repeating it. Which is fine, but please let's not pretend talking about class politics makes you middle class. That's nuts! I am middle class myself, but I know lots of people who aren't who would use the word a lot, as it explains a particular set of attitudes (of course it means different things to different people, but that's language).

sorry to belabour a point, but here is Angela Davis being white and middle class, talking about the 'bourgeoisie': http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/race/interviews/davis.html

Anyway my main point is not to be snipey, but more important: that what you're saying sounds suspiciously like denying working class people the 'right' to talk about class (at least in classic Marxist etc terms), using the rhetorical 'argument' that words such as 'bourgeois' is somehow middle class. Surely that's nothing but a reactionary (and plainly false) line of argument?
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
OK, read that Brooker article. The end bit about punishments is pretty horrible and this bit near the start

Why the obsession with trainers? Trainers are shit. You stick them on your feet and walk around for a while 'til they go out of fashion. Whoopie doo. Yes, I know they're also status symbols, but anyone who tries to impress others with their shoe choice is a dismally pathetic character indeed
completely fails to ask why trainers are a status symbol for people. Especially those, unlike Charlie, who are unable to afford status symbols that he might recognise such as a house.
But some of the bits in-between about consumerism in television programmes and (admittedly a bit of lip-service to) inequality aren't too far away from what I think to be honest.
This bit I mean

If preventing further looting is our aim, then as well as addressing the gulf between the haves and the have-nots, I'd take a long hard look at MTV Cribs and similar TV shows that routinely confuse human achievement with the mindless acquisition of gaudy bling bullshit. The media heaves with propaganda promoting sensation and consumption above all else.
Though admittedly he's back on to his strong suit of media again there - and he doesn't ask why those programmes are so popular, which might come back to the having and not-having something tells me.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
yeah, i don't know any black or working class people who'd know how to use it, or indeed even be interested in class dynamics :rolleyes: Sorry, but that's not an opinion worthy of you ,Tea - it sounds like something someone once said to you and you thought sounded quite neat, so are repeating it. Which is fine, but please let's not pretend talking about class politics makes you middle class. That's nuts!

Yes, it would be nuts, which is I'm not saying that at all! Of course you don't have to be middle class to have any interest in or knowledge of politics, that would be a ridiculous thing to think. What I'm saying is, use of the word 'borgeois' as a handy catch-all term for everything you think is wrong about society is, in my experience, overwhelmingly a middle-class (or 'borgeois'!) tendency. As if people in Tottenham went on the rampage because people in Hampstead buy bagged salads and read broadsheet newspapers.

For one thing, the word is redolent of radical politics from another era, a pre-war era even, when it may well have been relevant to a very stratified class system with a well-off middle class sitting quite clearly on top of a great downtrodden proletariat. But those days are long gone. You can earn a lot more as a plumber or train driver than as a university lecturer or civil servant (at least until you reach a pretty senior level). And it has undeniably negative connotations that derive more from straightforward prejudice than any particularly nuanced political argument, I think.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
I don't think that (explicit, articulated) class awareness is an exclusively middle class thing, but I do think that the use of "middle class" or "bourgeois" as pejoratives towards cultural stuff that you don't like pretty much is.
 

slowtrain

Well-known member
New topic - advice on dealing with damp in your house. We're trying really hard to avoid it, but pretty much all the advice you can find basically boils down to "don't live in a cold wet climate". I mean, I've mostly seen things saying that you shouldn't have wet towels around the place and you shouldn't dry clothes on radiators (which seem unavoidable if it's wet outside) and you should keep the place warm and well ventilated (which is a contradiction in terms if it's cold outside).

Wood burner works well!

Aside from that, I don't really know, but I feel your pain.

Mold is my arch-enemy.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Yes, it would be nuts, which is I'm not saying that at all! Of course you don't have to be middle class to have any interest in or knowledge of politics, that would be a ridiculous thing to think. What I'm saying is, use of the word 'borgeois' as a handy catch-all term for everything you think is wrong about society is, in my experience, overwhelmingly a middle-class (or 'borgeois'!) tendency. As if people in Tottenham went on the rampage because people in Hampstead buy bagged salads and read broadsheet newspapers.

For one thing, the word is redolent of radical politics from another era, a pre-war era even, when it may well have been relevant to a very stratified class system with a well-off middle class sitting quite clearly on top of a great downtrodden proletariat. But those days are long gone. You can earn a lot more as a plumber or train driver than as a university lecturer or civil servant (at least until you reach a pretty senior level). And it has undeniably negative connotations that derive more from straightforward prejudice than any particularly nuanced political argument, I think.

Fair enough. Not sure I agree (and I certainly don't use it as a catch-all for everything I think is wrong with society, but for a certain set of attitudes), but it's a debatable point. I think I was riled especially by Brooker's article yesterday, and so some of that may have come out against you here, so apologies for that. Still think the article is abhorrent though.

I'm quite happy to use a different word - what i was getting at in my annoyance was a set of attitudes that I loathe, and which Brooker extolled. Hard to pin them down exactly but: a commitment to left-wing values in theory, but none in practice when the reality of what holding these attitudes actually means hits home (eg reporting on Paris riots in 2007 (?) was infinitely more sympathetic to protestors than was coverage of the London riots, and broadly the same things happened); a tendency to cover quite objectionable attitudes with 'irony'; an unthinking commitment to property ownership, which comes across in certain ways (inability to distinguish between raiding Foot Locker and burning down a small business, in this case); a complete misunderstanding of what was happening that bears comparison to Daily Mail coverage, only better/more wittily written (in that example, it's not about fucking trainers); and a complete lack of self-knowledge or willingness to engage in self-critique (I'm sure Charlie is quite happy in his nice big house with all mod-cons, but suddenly kids wanting trainers is risible - both clearly arise from similar insecurities bound up with materialism, and the way he phrases it in that article is certainly classist and borderline racist to my eyes - that last is arguable though).

Anyway, new topic. Gonna save my ire for student protests today.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
I don't think that (explicit, articulated) class awareness is an exclusively middle class thing, but I do think that the use of "middle class" or "bourgeois" as pejoratives towards cultural stuff that you don't like pretty much is.

Not true. I have/have had friends/girlfriends from working class backgrounds who use it as a pejorative, most certainly. But, in mitigation, they have usually been people who have been exposed to a lot of middle classness in various ways.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Anyway, mould. Used to have quite a lot in a place I lived in, and I seem to remember ventilation was the key to keeping it under control. But it didn't work completely :/
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
:) Still hate fucking dinner parties though. Love food, however.

You should get some better friends. Or come to one of mine, they're a blast.

Um, you'd have to come to the Netherlands now, though...

Good post btw, I certainly see where you're coming from with that particular article. That stuff about putting people in perspex boxes was pretty nuts.

Edit: don't see how it's even "borderline" racist though, as far as I can see he doesn't mention race or anything that's even connected with race - and we all know by now that the rioters came from a broad cross-secion of ethnic backgrounds...
 
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hucks

Your Message Here
the English FA / FIFA / poppy thing. are these people for real?

It's very recent, this mania. England have played in November before, no poppies and no fuss.
Edit: in fact, two years ago they played brazil in Qatar for loads of money and didn't wear poppies and no one cared.

But now it's evrywhere. All prem clubs wear shirts with poppies on in the first weeks of november, too. Man u tried not to last year and got dog's abuse from the right wing press.

It's a real shame that a symbol meant to honour the dead is now a mandatory display of grief and solidarity for people fighting wars the majority of the country doesn't support.

I can't help but feel it means less as a result but I'm not sure how you would demonstrate that and what that, in turn, would mean.
 
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slowtrain

Well-known member
Anyway, mould. Used to have quite a lot in a place I lived in, and I seem to remember ventilation was the key to keeping it under control. But it didn't work completely :/

Yeah, the mold in my room in this flat does my head.

Ventilation is a good idea but our landlords thought it would be cool to get some cheap losers to paint the windows, and mine has been stuck shut for a few months now.

Talked to him about twice already but fuck it if anything will get done.

I hate this building, can't wait to move somewhere cooler in January.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
You should get some better friends. Or come to one of mine, they're a blast.

Edit: don't see how it's even "borderline" racist though, as far as I can see he doesn't mention race or anything that's even connected with race - and we all know by now that the rioters came from a broad cross-secion of ethnic backgrounds...

Ha - no, I think it's childhood disgust at my parents' dinner parties - it's the format rather than the people. If you call it 'having people round for dinner', I'm there; the instant dps are mentioned (ahem), I'm outta there.

Well, yes and no. It was more 'racialised' than 'racist', I should have said. But the article comes perilously close to ridiculing what is perceived (and I know it's not true, it's a stereotype, but I've never seen Brooker say anything that shows he's not working with stereotypes in this area, and i've read a lot of his stuff) as black culture/black fashion. Plus, non-white people are disproportionately poor in the UK (as most others), so, while it was in no way a race riot, but a poverty riot, then that will mean that non-white people are disproportionately represented in what happened.

And, specifically, the violence in Hackney resulted immediately from two (?) black guys being ridiculously stop-searched, and obv there was the racialised context of what happened in Tottenham - there was a strong element of reaction to societal racism in it, although yeah, more about poverty than race per se.

And in Clapham it was definitely racialised, mainly cos Clapham is a particularly apartheid-ised part of London. (As - dear fuck, having been there the other week - is Dalston, but that's a side observation).
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Yeah, the mold in my room in this flat does my head.

Ventilation is a good idea but our landlords thought it would be cool to get some cheap losers to paint the windows, and mine has been stuck shut for a few months now.

Talked to him about twice already but fuck it if anything will get done.

I hate this building, can't wait to move somewhere cooler in January.

Hm, that sucks. Sounds like the landlord is an asshole too...if you've only got to stick it out til January, then guess it's better to put up with it, cos I dont' think there is a quick fix without structural changes.
 
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