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Thread: Boycotting Zionism

  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teafucker
    On the other hand, I have no idea as to the real extent of "the complicity of Israeli academia" in the maltreatment of Palestinians
    Trans: "I'm not aware of any (and I don't want to be). Therefore none exists."

    The Teafuck troll yet again parades his complete ignorance of the Israeli-Palestinian war while both insulting and condemning those who are informed about the subject and plastering this forum with his reactionary "opinions" on a subject about which he prefers to wallow in contemptible indifference and defence of the Zionist status quo, the far right view (as his aggressive stance clearly is) here masquerading as "reasonable and balanced."

    ASIDE (A Long Overdue Vicious Rant - And Warning)

    [ Once again, Teatroll, FUCK OFF out of this forum ...

    ... you were given months of opportunity and leeway to end your persecutary, offensive and personally abusive trolling here but instead have continued on regardless. Not any more: now come the fucking fireworks, asshole. So now let's just see you handle the very real consequences of your irresponsible behaviour on (and where it becomes necessary, off) this forum, along with the little clique of loser piss-artists you associate with here ...

    HA HA HA!!!

    ................ HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

    .................................... This is going to be such FUN!!!!]

    Well let's just see what those on the receiving end of the Israeli atrocities which Teafuck so eagerly supports actually think:

    "The Palestinian Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel (PACBI) salutes the historic decision by the University and College Union (UCU) Congress today to support motions that endorse the logic of academic boycott against Israel, in response to the complicity of the Israeli academy in perpetuating Israel’s illegal military occupation and apartheid system.

    Academic boycott has been advocated in the past as an effective tool in resisting injustice. In the 1920s, Mahatma Gandhi called for boycotting British-run academic institutions, to increase Indian self-reliance and also to protest the role of those institutions in maintaining British colonial domination over India. In the 1950s, the African National Congress (ANC) called for a comprehensive boycott of the entire South African academy, as a means to further isolate the apartheid regime. To their credit, British academics were among the very first to adopt the latter boycott. Moral consistency makes it imperative to hold Israel to the same standards.

    Israel is now widely recognized as a state that actually practices apartheid, as evidenced in recent declarations by international figures from Jimmy carter and UN Special Rapporteur on human rights Prof. John Dugard to Archbishop Desmond Tutu and South African government minister Ronnie Kasrils, among many others. During the ongoing occupation of Palestinian land, Israel’s policies have included house demolitions; Jews-only colonies and roads; uprooting hundreds of thousands of trees; indiscriminate killings of Palestinian civilians, particularly children; relentless theft of land and water resources; and denying millions of their freedom of movement by slicing up the occupied Palestinian territory into Bantustans -- some entirely caged by walls, fences and hundreds of roadblocks.

    Throughout forty years of Israeli military occupation of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem), Israeli academics have duly continued to serve in the occupation army, thereby participating in, or at least witnessing, crimes committed on a daily basis against the civilian population of Palestine. No Israeli academic institution, association, or union has ever publicly opposed Israel's occupation and colonization, its system of racial discrimination against its own Palestinian citizens, or its obstinate denial of the internationally-sanctioned rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties. Furthermore, the Israeli academy has been in direct or indirect collusion with the military-intelligence establishment, providing it with “academic” research services to sustain its oppression.

    This courageous and morally laudable decision by the UCU to apply effective pressure against Israel in the pursuit of justice and genuine peace is only the latest measure adopted by an international community that can no longer tolerate Israel’s impunity in trashing human rights principles and international law. In the last few months alone, groups heeding -- to various degrees -- Palestinian calls for boycott and effective pressure against Israel have included the British National Union of Journalists (NUJ); Aosdana, the Irish state-sponsored academy of artists; Congress Of South African Trade Unions (COSATU); and prominent British and international architects led by Architects for Peace and Justice in Palestine (APJP).

    Once again, the taboo has been shattered. It has now become more legitimate than ever to denounce Israel’s oppressive policies and to hold the state and all its complicit institutions accountable for human rights abuses, war crimes, and the longest military occupation in modern history. The Israeli academy will no longer be able to enjoy international recognition, cooperation, and generous support while remaining an accessory to crimes committed against the Palestinians.

    Palestinians are now more confident than ever that international civil society is indeed capable of shouldering the moral responsibility of standing up to injustice and demanding freedom, self-determination, and unmitigated equality for all
    ."

  2. #17
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    ASIDE (A Long Overdue Vicious Rant - And Warning)

    [ Once again, Teatroll, FUCK OFF out of this forum ...

    ... you were given months of opportunity and leeway to end your persecutary, offensive and personally abusive trolling here but instead have continued on regardless. Not any more: now come the fucking fireworks, asshole. So now let's just see you handle the very real consequences of your irresponsible behaviour on (and where it becomes necessary, off) this forum, along with the little clique of loser piss-artists you associate with here ...

    HA HA HA!!!

    ................ HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

    .................................... This is going to be such FUN!!!!]
    This is starting to remind me of The Wire. Go on Ziggy, you can have him, you're a legend of the docks Ziggy.

  3. #18
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    "You're not making any sense whatsoever, Idlerich - this is just yet another bizarre non-sequitur introduced as a desperate attempt to sabotage this discussion"
    I don't mean to sabotage, it's just your views on what constitutes rape are so questionable I found it strange to see you appealing to the topic in an argument on morality.
    Anyway, as you say, back to the matter in hand. The argument that a boycott of Israeli institutions is anti-semitic is obviously nonsense - the boycott would affect an English professor at an Israeli institution and not an Israeli professor at an English one. Those who claim that it is anti-semitic are surely just muddying the waters to avoid the real debate.

  4. #19
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    Those who claim that it is anti-semitic are surely just muddying the waters to avoid the real debate.
    Accusations of anti-semitism are a reflexive defense mechanism for anyone wanting to justify Israeli excesses. But it's legitimate to question the double standards of those who are always singling out that country while saying nothing
    g about, say, China.

  5. #20
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    Accusations of anti-semitism are a reflexive defense mechanism for anyone wanting to justify Israeli excesses. But it's legitimate to question the double standards of those who are always singling out that country while saying nothing about, say, China.
    Sure but that is a constantly raised point (the left said the very same thing about Iraq) and it's a prescription for never doing anything about anything.
    I'm not saying that I necessarily subscribe to the boycott of academia, it's a very thorny issue that deserves proper debate and throwing around accusations of anti-semitism serves it ill (I should say that no-one on this thread has done that as far as I know but in general people have).

  6. #21
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    Off topic (?):

    Is hmlt P****** by another name? this particular brand of rhetoric seems familiar from before ...

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  8. #23
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    whoops, old news!!!!

  9. #24
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    Still, it's getting a little over the top again isn't it?

  10. #25
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    You'd better watch yourself, Padraig - throwing your toys out of the pram like that could get you banned again, which really would be a terrible shame.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    I don't mean to sabotage
    But its not relevant here what you mean to do, it is what you are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    it's just your views on what constitutes rape are so questionable
    Idlerich continues his sabotage of the thread subject, and in the very same sentence that he denies doing so!!!

    No, it is your views on rape that are not only questionable, but downright farcical. You know perfectly well the context in which I was using it in this thread, of how particular conflicts are trivialized via willfull displacement - which is Teabag's - predictable bully that he is, he's now resorting to intimidation tactics ["You'll be banned if you expose my lunacy"] - twisted agenda here, and he doesn't even know it, so chronically obsessed as he undoubtedly is with abusing anything I post on this forum that he's willing to embrace far-right madness, anything that will serve to advance his pathology - and which I've pointed out numerous times already on this forum, but still goes radically denied and unheeded, to the point that we get amnesiac and hysterical responses from the likes of Zhou ("What's all this nonsense"), Eric and other smug - fellow-travelling - posters whenever I challenge or confront his insanity. Get a fucking life ... [And stay the fuck out of THAT argument].

    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    Anyway, as you say, back to the matter in hand. The argument that a boycott of Israeli institutions is anti-semitic is obviously nonsense
    It is a slur that is only advanced by Zionists and their defenders (and which only serves to delight actual neo-fascist anti-semites, which is hardly surprising given the close historical collaboration between Zionists and Nazis before and during WWII).

    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    - the boycott would affect an English professor at an Israeli institution and not an Israeli professor at an English one.
    Why the hypersensitive concern for the oppressors here? The boycott is an extremely modest, if not token, response to the daily oppression and slaughter of Palestinians by the Israeli killing machine. Only comprehensive sanctions (and an immediate termination of all US funding of that war machine) combined with a serious committment to their full implementation will end the killing. A sense of proper proportion is called for.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredmillionlifetimes View Post
    which is Teabag's - predictable bully that he is, he's now resorting to intimidation tactics ["You'll be banned if you expose my lunacy"]
    How can I 'intimidate' you with threats of banning when I'm not a mod?
    I'm just filled with childish glee that you might kicked off for being such an obnoxious twat, that's all.
    Quote Originally Posted by hundredmillionlifetimes View Post
    twisted agenda here, and he doesn't even know it, so chronically obsessed as he undoubtedly is with abusing anything I post on this forum
    Ahaha! Your hypocrisy really knows no bounds, does it?
    Quote Originally Posted by hundredmillionlifetimes View Post
    It is a slur that is only advanced by Zionists and their defenders (and which only serves to delight actual neo-fascist anti-semites, which is hardly surprising given the close historical collaboration between Zionists and Nazis before and during WWII).
    Jesus, this is fucked up even by your standards. Tinfoil hat, sir?
    Quote Originally Posted by hundredmillionlifetimes View Post
    A sense of proper proportion is called for.
    You can say that again...

    Edit: and as for posting a picture of an Israeli tank with a swastika crudely pasted onto it - I don't think I've ever seen (even from you) anything quite so infantile, offensive and hysterical in a supposedly serious 'political' debate. "The Jews act just like Nazis towards the Palestinians, which is kinda funny when you think about it, since the Nazis tried to kill all the Jews! Also, have you ever noticed that "God" spelled backwards is "dog"? Makes you think, huh?" Fuck off.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 03-06-2007 at 11:23 PM.
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  13. #28

    Default Zionism, The Holocaust, and Nazism

    I and the public know
    What all schoolchildren learn,
    Those to whom evil is done
    Do Evil in return.

    - - - W H Auden

    Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund… On
    December 19, 1940, he wrote: ‘It must be clear that there is no room for both
    peoples in this country… The Zionist enterprise so far… has been fine and
    good in its own time, and could do with ‘land buying’—but this will not bring
    about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation
    (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides
    transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them
    all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not
    leave a single village, not a single tribe’
    …There were literally hundreds of
    such statements made by Zionists
    . ” ---Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.”

    For me, this business called the state of Israel is finished…I can’t bear to
    see it anymore, the injustice that is done to the Arabs, to the Beduins. All
    kinds of scum coming from America and as soon as they get off the plane
    taking over lands in the territories and claiming them for their own… I can’t
    do anything to change it. I can only go away and let the whole lot go to hell
    without me
    .” --Israeli actress (and household name) Rivka Michaeli, quoted in Israeli
    peace movement periodical, “The Other Israel”, August 1998.



    It seems some posters here need a little history lesson, and from a Jewish perspective.

    Via Jews For Justice at If America Knew

    The Holocaust is often used as the final argument in favor of Zionism, but
    is this connection justified? There are several aspects to consider in answering
    that question honestly. First, we will examine the historical record of what the
    Zionist movement actually did to help save European Jewry from the Nazis.

    Shamir proposes an alliance with the Nazis

    “As late as 1941, the Zionist group LEHI, one of whose leaders, Yitzhak
    Shamir, was later to become a prime minister of Israel, approached the Nazis,
    using the name of its parent organization, the Irgun (NMO)…[Their proposal
    stated:] ‘The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and
    totalitarian basis and bound by a treaty with the German Reich would be in
    the interests of strengthening the future German nation of power in the Near
    East… The NMO in Palestine offers to take an active part in the war on
    Germany’s side’….The Nazis rejected this proposal for an alliance because, it
    is reported, they considered LEHI’s military power ‘negligable.’ ” Allan
    Brownfield, “The Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs”, July/August 1998.

    Wasn’t the main goal of Zionism to save Jews from the Holocaust?

    “In 1938 a thirty-one nation conference was held in Evian, France, on re-settlement
    of the victims of Nazism. The World Zionist Organization refused
    to participate, fearing that resettlement of Jews in other states would reduce
    the number available for Palestine.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Chal-lenge
    to Justice.”

    Main goal of Zionism – continued

    “It was summed up in the meeting [of the Jewish Agency’s Executive on
    June 26, 1938] that the Zionist thing to do ‘is belittle the [Evian] Conference
    as far as possible and to cause it to decide nothing…We are particularly wor-ried
    that it would move Jewish organizations to collect large sums of money for
    aid to Jewish refugees, and these collections could interfere with our collection
    efforts’…Ben-Gurion’s statement at the same meeting: ‘No rationalization can
    turn the conference from a harmful to a useful one. What can and should be
    done is to limit the damage as far as possible.’ ” Israeli author Boas Evron, “Jew-ish
    State or Israeli Nation?”

    Main goal of Zionism – continued

    “[Ben-Gurion stated,] ‘If I knew that it was possible to save all the children
    in Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by trans-porting
    them to Palestine, I would choose the second—because we face not
    only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jew-ish
    people.’ In the wake of the Kristallnacht pogroms, Ben-Gurion commented
    that ‘the human conscience’ might bring various countries to open their doors
    to Jewish refugees from Germany. He saw this as a threat and warned: ‘Zionism
    is in danger.’ ” Israeli historian, Tom Segev, “The Seventh Million.”

    Main goal of Zionism – continued

    “The Zionist movement…interfered with and hindered other organizations,
    Jewish and non-Jewish, whenever it imagined that their activity, political or
    humanitarian, was at variance with Zionist aims or in competition with them,
    even when these might be helpful to Jews, even when it was a question of life
    and death…Beit Zvi documents the Zionist leadership’s indifference to saving
    Jews from the Nazi menace except in cases in which the Jews could be brought
    to Palestine…[e.g.] the readiness of the dictator of the Dominican Republic,
    Rafael Trujillo, to absorb one hundred thousand refugees and the sabotaging of
    this idea—as well as others, like proposals to settle the Jews in Alaska and the
    Philippines—by the Zionist movement…

    “The obtuseness of the Zionist movement toward the fate of European Jewry
    did not prevent it, of course, from later hurling accusations against the whole
    world for its indifference toward the Jewish catastrophe or from pressing mate-rial,
    political, and moral demands on the world because of that indifference.”
    Israeli author Boas Evron, “Jewish State or Israeli Nation?”

    Main goal of Zionism - continued

    “Even David Ben-Gurion’s sympathetic biographer acknowledges that Ben-Gurion
    did nothing practical for rescue, devoting his energies to post-war prospects. He
    delegated rescue work to Yitzak Gruenbam, who [stated]. . . ‘They
    will say that I am anti-Semitic, that I don’t want to save the Exile, that I don’t
    a varm Yiddish hartz. . . Let them say what they want. I will not demand that the
    Jewish Agency allocate a sum of 300,000 or 100,000 pounds sterling to help
    European Jewry. And I think that whoever demands such things is performing
    an anti-Zionist act.’

    “Zionists in America. . . took the same position. At a May 1943 meeting of
    the American Emergency Committee for Zionist Affairs, Nahum Goldmann
    argued, ‘If a drive is opened against the White Paper (the British policy of
    restricting Jewish immigration to Palestine) the mass meetings of protest against
    the murder of European Jewry will have to be dropped. We do not have suffi-cient
    manpower for both campaigns.’ ” Peter Novick, “The Holocaust in American
    Life

    Main goal of Zionism – continued

    “I have already gone exhaustively into the reason for our being here, rea-sons
    that I as a pioneer of 1906 can affirm have nothing to do with the
    Nazis!…We are here because this land is ours. And we are here because we
    have again made it ours in this time with the work we have put into it. Nazism
    and our history of martyrdom abroad do not concern our presence in Israel
    directly.” David Ben-Gurion, “Memoirs.”

    In hindsight, it is easy to say that the millions of Jews who were murdered in
    the Holocaust could have been saved if Palestine had been available for unlimited
    immigration. The history of this period is not so simple, however. First,
    keep in mind that other realistic resettlement plans were proposed but actively
    opposed by the Zionist movement. Second, the great majority of Jews in Eu-rope
    were not Zionists and did not try to emigrate to Palestine before 1939.
    Third, after the start of the war, as the Nazis occupied various countries, they
    refused to let the Jews leave, making emigration virtually impossible. And Palestine,
    as we have shown, was already occupied; the indigenous Arabs had
    more valid reasons than any other country for wanting to limit Jewish immigration.

  14. #29
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    But isn't the point people have been trying to make not that there is no issue about the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli state but whether a boycott of academic institutions (and the people who happen to work in them) is the best way of communicating the feeling that this treatment is not right? `Best' meaning a) most equitable in the sense of not targeting people who have little or no DIRECT responsibility for the problem and b) most effective in actual behavior change.

    I'm sure there are lots of places to nitpick in the above, but you see what I'm trying to say (maybe)

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    But isn't the point people have been trying to make not that there is no issue about the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli state but whether a boycott of academic institutions (and the people who happen to work in them) is the best way of communicating the feeling that this treatment is not right?
    This is a political issue, not a spurious exercise in "communicating feelings"; that is an ideological variation on "yes, we're all for change, just so long as we don't actually have to change anything."

    The best way would be for comprehensive sanctions to be immediately implemented, but in their absence you would here prefer to nit-pick about irrelevant trivia for purposes of avoiding all change, of rationalising the perpetuation of the status quo, of opposing and talking down all efforts at genuine change in Israel-Palestine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    `Best' meaning a) most equitable in the sense of not targeting people who have little or no DIRECT responsibility for the problem
    But it is targeting those who have VERY MUCH responsibility, who have direct responsibility, who directly preside over - and often directly engage in - these crimes. Not targeting them is to facilitate and support their continued collusion in Israeli injustices and atrocities. And again, though it really isn't relevant, Israeli academics critical of the Zionist agenda and current Israeli policies and practices fully support the boycott.

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