Dubstep

I'm looking forward to hearing 'The End' properly, seems like it's a more fully realised version of the recent Coki template. Something like haunted is a perfect miniature though I think - a build / a breakdown / a second drop. I like the way it just ends as well, really deadpan.

Would you make the same demands of Techno, just out of interest?

I seem to be quite often defending the state of dubstep here for some reason but recently I have heard a few examples of really bad things that supposedly fall under that banner. Unfunky, unsubtle, stiff, pointlessly harsh, lacking in any atmosphere or real sense of space. Just rubbish.

noel emits said:

I'm looking forward to hearing 'The End' properly, seems like it's a more fully realised version of the recent Coki template. Something like haunted is a perfect miniature though I think - a build / a breakdown / a second drop. I like the way it just ends as well, really deadpan.

Would you make the same demands of Techno, just out of interest?

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techno did it to itself, in detroit anyway, and i'm not making those demands, it seems an option, haunted is a finished track to me. some electronic stuff is just tracky some is more song based, it's a fact.

mms said:

techno did it to itself, in detroit anyway, and i'm not making those demands, it seems an option, haunted is a finished track to me. some electronic stuff is just tracky some is more song based, it's a fact.

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Understood. I meant to say demands / categorisations but calling something 'tracky' sounds like a negative judgement to my ears.

i've been all around the houses with my feelings about Coki, but at the moment i rate him a lot. feeling The End in particular

mms i like what you say about the tracky vs progressive thing. but as to all Coki's stuff being tracky i dunno, say something like All Of A Sudden, there's actually just a ridiculous amount of build and progression through the track, after the breakdown the bass drops back in quick but it takes like 2 minutes before it starts going again properly, with drums and modulation twisting round one another in various rhythms and forms in this kind of locked down tension, before it rolls back out into the ridiculous wonkiness

and as an open question to any who are levelling the criticism of a lack of variation, how many artists that you love stick to a particular sound or technique and work within that and develop that? does it not just so happen that you dont like this particular sound, for one reason or another?

my main issue with coki i think was actually nothing to do with him, but with the way i perceived his wobblers, i suppose due to how they seem to be recieved and championed... now i dont see his tunes as these massive bangers* (with the exception of a few), to me rather they're very very odd pieces of music. once i dont expect them to make me go mad, but rather immerse me in oddness, i thoroughly enjoy them

to balance out my perhaps usual unquestioning support of 'dubstep', i should say that ive hated at least three quarters of what i've heard under that banner for the last year or so

* i dont mean to aim this at anyone in particular in this discussion, i dont know if anyone here is doing that, its more just a general reflection of mine

noel emits said:

Understood. I meant to say demands / categorisations but calling something 'tracky' sounds like a negative judgement to my ears.

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not really, i think a good dj approaches things in an almost utilitarian way and if some some tracks seem built for that then that's good, as that's something they might be facilitating, consciously or unconsciously. i think trackyness definitely has it's place, i jeff mills live in tokyo etc, but you know when a track with more elements and more depth and definition comes in too, and that track is allowed to do it's stuff.
coki is of course an excellent producer at times and i'm not levelling this as a criticism, really, but the stuff he has done bits of lately, the tempa and big apple eps, are much more sparse in ideas, variation, depth of production etc than previous stuff, but there is stuff that works in there clearly, so maybe they have a different purpose, see..
you see that in the way a dj like n-type treats alot of the newer less deep stuff too, its closer to the way a ghettobass dj does their thing that the meditations of youngsta or mala.

Grievous Angel said:

You lucky, lucky bastard.

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Quoted for truth.

Blackdown said:

Pinch "Underwater Dancehall" (Tectonic)

CD1

1. Brighter Day (originally Qawaali) ft Juakali
2. Get Up (formerly Whirl) ft Yolanda
3. Airlock
4. One Blood, One Source ft Rudey Lee
5. Widescreen
6. Gangstaz ft Juakali
7. Angels In the Rain ft Indi Khur
8. Battered ft. Yolanda
9. Trauma ft. Juakali
10. Lazarus

CD2

As above but without vocals.

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Im champing at the bit for this one! Great title by the way... Just hope the vox are good...

new burial album november 5th! i've got very high hopes for that and the pinch album as well, i fully expect them to be the soundtrack to my winter.

gek-opel said:

Im champing at the bit for this one! Great title by the way... Just hope the vox are good...

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lol, Pinch had "Dubstep, Grime & Underwater Dancehall" on the front of a flyer for an old Subloaded party (his six-monthly big dubstep rave) and had all sorts of people asking what kind of music Underwater Dancehall was. I guess they're just about to find out.

elgato said:

i've been all around the houses with my feelings about Coki, but at the moment i rate him a lot. feeling The End in particular

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listened to red eye ep expecting to not like it at all (pleasantly surprised), but coki i think should be credited as an originator of the sound that so many are copying right now. thats not his fault, if he was the only one doing wobble, we'd all be rating him loads more. hes a top producer

i think the problem with the wobble is that its used so un-subtly - its like the nuclear bomb of dubstep, dj's drop it, crowd goes off - shear sonic impact. theres not all that much skill involved if thats all you are willing to do.

i love wobble when its used as flavouring - a massive mid sounds ace when it's spicing up a luvverly deep sine sub. It's like all things; great in moderation.

mms said:

not really, i think a good dj approaches things in an almost utilitarian way and if some some tracks seem built for that then that's good, as that's something they might be facilitating, consciously or unconsciously. i think trackyness definitely has it's place, i jeff mills live in tokyo etc, but you know when a track with more elements and more depth and definition comes in too, and that track is allowed to do it's stuff.
coki is of course an excellent producer at times and i'm not levelling this as a criticism, really, but the stuff he has done bits of lately, the tempa and big apple eps, are much more sparse in ideas, variation, depth of production etc than previous stuff, but there is stuff that works in there clearly, so maybe they have a different purpose, see..
you see that in the way a dj like n-type treats alot of the newer less deep stuff too, its closer to the way a ghettobass dj does their thing that the meditations of youngsta or mala.

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Yes I understand what 'tracky' means and how those bits are used, but as you were complaining about Coki's 'riffy riffing' and suggesting that there are two sides to dubstep, one being a 'fulfilling and complete experience' then it does give the impression that you have a preference.

So thanks for the education. I'll assume it was for the sake of clarity and for the board's general edification.

I just think a lot of coki's wobblers aren't all that good.

Tortured is utterly brilliant, both tracky and a fully realised tune. But a lot of the red eye ep just... doesn't sound very good. it's boring and (whispers) it's not very well mastered IMO (at least the white wasn't, don't have the full release). All of a sudden was half baked.

I haven't heard the end though. If it's a dubstep refix of the doors, then I am there, though I would have preferred when the music's over.

Is anybody with me for a dubstep-refixes-of-swans movement? I've been dribbling on about this for two years with no takers so far.

noel emits said:

Yes I understand what 'tracky' means and how those bits are used, but as you were complaining about Coki's 'riffy riffing' and suggesting that there are two sides to dubstep, one being a 'fulfilling and complete experience' then it does give the impression that you have a preference.

So thanks for the education. I'll assume it was for the sake of clarity and for the board's general edification.

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erm no i'm trying to explain what the two sides are by explaining tracky stuff and what more song based stuff is like, and i've tried to explain how the two things might work together in a mix or as stylistic entities, yes i prefer to listen to deeper more crafted tracks and i think the more tracky tracks aren't as exciting.
this is something you seem to have missed though.

as well as the Pinch and Burial im also very interested to hear Paul's ragga-techno-dubstep LP...

when's it going to be available? are you sending it out to any djs yet?

elgato said:

im also very interested to hear Paul's ragga-techno-dubstep LP...

when's it going to be available? are you sending it out to any djs yet?

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Ah yes! It's should be on this obscure Japanese label called Electrik Dragon, I should have tracks on compilations they're doing too. I don't know when the release date is cos the label manager is on tour in the US right now and he hasn't sorted it all out yet - including distribution, which means it might not happen at all! But we were aiming for before Xmas. It's being mastered at some posh place in Tokyo though, which I take as a good sign. We're planning on it being a double disk - one unmixed, one mixed. At least the mix is likely to make people happy

It's a mix of straight dubstep, albeit of the jazzy, swinging, spaced out type - not really like anyone else, a touch of Mala, bit of timeblind, bit of Pinch - and pounding ragga techno, plus a couple of downtempo things. The ragga techno stuff stems from the early pre-half-step years of dubstep, when I wanted squidgy, acidic bass, garage beats and ragga vocals. It's funny how that style is back in fashion now with TRG and 2562, though my stuff is a bit more banging - bit like the Bug. I've been working with Heatwave's MC, he's really good.

I've sent it to a few DJs, and had some good feedback from people like Paul Hotflush and Jamie Vex'd. Selector Dub U has been very keen!

I'll send you links to some of the tracks.

sounds great, i'll look forward to it!

Mr Jeg said:

new burial album november 5th! i've got very high hopes for that and the pinch album as well, i fully expect them to be the soundtrack to my winter.

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isn't there also a benga cd on the way? i remember skream mentioning it last month on his show...

Leo said:

isn't there also a benga cd on the way? i remember skream mentioning it last month on his show...

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Yes. Afro Warrior. This really could be album of the year judging by the bits Yunx has been dropping.