You

nomadologist said:

Exactly, that's the major issue with the American "left"

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I blame a misplaced faith in nonviolent protest.

I find this argument also pops up aesthetically a lot--if you dare to have strong aesthetic preferences and are willing to discuss them and back them up, people get SO OFFENDED. As if having an opinion means that you automatically think everyone else's is "invalid." God forbid you just enjoy aesthetic debate!

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More and more I think if you don't want to have an aesthetic debate (or any debate) about something, it means you don't really care about it. And fewer and fewer people seem to actually care about music/film/whatever apart from immediate enjoyment/lifestyle accessorization/nerd cred enough to discuss it. Hence, "To the internet board!"

I do have long and very involved arguments with friends about music, art, films, politics. A friend of mine is a radical libertarian who belives that free-market capitalism doesn't work because "It's never really existed." I had a blazing row about humanities degrees with another mate who thinks that anything that isn't a science is useless to mankind in terms of applying your education. I wouldn't say I enjoy arguing, but I feel the need to sometimes. But outside of that immediate circle of close friends I wouldn't want to rock the boat, mainly because I don't think people would pay any attention to me anyway, they like to hear what they believe in the first place.

Re: people getting really offended if you have strong aesthetic opinions... ugh. I had an ex-girlfriend, who would just get livid if I even humbly expressed an opinion because "it would make her feel stupid", because I'm, as she put it, "very convincing", thus making her feel bad because I just accidentally made her "think differently". Er, my bad? I'm admittedly headstrong and opinionated (classic Aries, I can't seem to help it:slanted: ), but not in a pushy or bullyish way by any means, but I'm always full of ideas and enthusiasm about things, and actually she was too, that's what initially attracted us to each other. Except she subscribed to the "if you disagree you're just wrong/stupid/a-bad-person" outlook, and it drove her nuts to suddenly be with someone who was constantly (but unintentionally) actually making her question some of her opinions. I was always interested to hear her thoughts and even advice, most of which were really good, but she couldn't take any herself at all... yeesh. I'm surprised the relationship lasted as long as it did.

I've always really liked people that make me look at things in a new light personally, never understood the mentality where people don't want to learn anything new. Seems like such a boring way to live...

Gavin said:

More and more I think if you don't want to have an aesthetic debate (or any debate) about something, it means you don't really care about it. And fewer and fewer people seem to actually care about music/film/whatever apart from immediate enjoyment/lifestyle accessorization/nerd cred enough to discuss it. Hence, "To the internet board!"

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QFT

Yeah, but this wasn't the typical scenario with me just not "letting her win" enough and bringing needless wrath on myself. I was always listening to her, and would shrug things off and "let her be right" all the time. And "constantly making her question her opinions" perhaps was the wrong way of putting it. Rather, I would just be myself, and she'd get pissed off and start nitpicking everything and asking why I thought or did ___, and if I (was stupid enough to) try to defend myself (with reasonably backed up opinions) it would piss her off more. Sure, "it's always this way in relationships", "let her be right", but she was waay more extreme than my other girlfriends. I brought her up in regards to aesthetic debate because she'd actually get heatedly argumentative about me liking "stupid" hip hop or whatever. And I love music debates but she'd actually be angry. Hm, can't say I miss her really.

People tend to "win" arguments in a social situation (work, for example) because of who they are, rather than for what they're actually saying.

Chris said:

Yeah, but this wasn't the typical scenario with me just not "letting her win" enough and bringing needless wrath on myself. I was always listening to her, and would shrug things off and "let her be right" all the time. And "constantly making her question her opinions" perhaps was the wrong way of putting it. Rather, I would just be myself, and she'd get pissed off and start nitpicking everything and asking why I thought or did ___, and if I (was stupid enough to) try to defend myself (with reasonably backed up opinions) it would piss her off more. Sure, "it's always this way in relationships", "let her be right", but she was waay more extreme than my other girlfriends. I brought her up in regards to aesthetic debate because she'd actually get heatedly argumentative about me liking "stupid" hip hop or whatever. And I love music debates but she'd actually be angry. Hm, can't say I miss her really.

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i totally understand what you're saying...i've had friends like that. my boyfriend and i are both more your type and have very similar tastes, so when we started dating we actually had people say similar thing to your ex--that they didn't feel like they could talk about music around us because it made them feel "stupid".

Referring back to the poll, I chose that I never know what people think of me and, I have to admit, it sometimes drives me crazy.

When a person has made a strong impression on me, I can often spend much time wondering what goes through their mind when I talk to them, or when they think of me. Although I'd like to think this is due to a general interest in way that I interact with people around me, I rather suspect it stems from my own constant desire to feel validated by people who I hold in high regard. At the risk of this sounding like a narcissitic self-psychoanalysis, I'm assuming that this has a great amount to do with the way I was brought up. Similarly to Swears' description, my family wasn't big on emotional sympathy; but I think this had a rather detrimental effect on me, as I've constantly seeked attention and affection from elsewhere. However, when I have been confronted with it, I find it difficult to react to, since I've rarely been presented with suitable displays of mutual affection at home.

Recently, since finishing exams has given me far too much time to contemplate on menial things, I think I've begun to decide that the way a person is brought up has a colossal bearing on their personality and actions in later life. What I mean by this is the effect of relationships with parents and siblings (or even a lack of both), the structure of emotional support provided by them and even things such as birth order. Maybe it's just because I'm still young and living with my family that they seem to be such an elemental factor in everything I do, or just because I've not yet had the chance to invite any opposition to my opinions, but I do believe that many of the intricacies of an adult's character can be discerned from their experiences with their family.

Pulchritude said:

Recently, since finishing exams has given me far too much time to contemplate on menial things, I think I've begun to decide that the way a person is brought up has a colossal bearing on their personality and actions in later life. What I mean by this is the effect of relationships with parents and siblings (or even a lack of both), the structure of emotional support provided by them and even things such as birth order. Maybe it's just because I'm still young and living with my family that they seem to be such an elemental factor in everything I do, or just because I've not yet had the chance to invite any opposition to my opinions, but I do believe that many of the intricacies of an adult's character can be discerned from their experiences with their family.

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Certainly. But sometimes I feel like there is too much emphasis on a man’s formative years as the rationale — or some subconscious motivator — for his every action. I cannot recall the numbers, and I’m too lazy to do a proper search, but from what I remember, psychologists think of the outcome/fallout of a man’s first fifteen odd years or so as an utmost keen indicator of his psychological well-being later on in life.

Guybrush, out of interest are you using 'man' in the old-fashioned gender-neutral sense of 'person' (which is what it meant in Old English, fact fans) or are you talking specifically about males?

Mr. Tea said:

Guybrush, out of interest are you using 'man' in the old-fashioned gender-neutral sense of 'person' (which is what it meant in Old English, fact fans) or are you talking specifically about males?

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I was using the gender-neutral ‘man’. Actually, that description was a slipshod summary of what is decribed in one of my favourite books — the title translates something like Not Like Us — Psychological Aspects on Xenophobia and Racism — which I have somewhere downstairs. The book, amongst other things, explores the relationship between one’s formative years and one’s emotional life. I can quote from it later if you want me too. (The writer is like a semi-Freudian or something.)

barry_abs said:

can't think of many exceptions..

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theres loads of events that can happen to a man after his first 15 years that will massively affect his psycholoical well-being - divorce, bereavement... jeez, just like hundreds of things. i had a generally fucked up time when i was a teenager but those events pale into insignificance with some issues i've dealt with as an adult, that have without a shadow of a doubt changed me as a human being. surely its the same for everyone?

nomadologist said:

of course--usually when you hate someone you're only hating something about them that represents/mirrors something similar about you that you hate in yourself (consciously or not)

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While I'm not too sure that this is exactly the case in that I think you can genuinly oppose something because it causes honest-to-god grief, uncomfort or displeasure to you (as in Mr. Tea's dislike of rude people), I can't see a way that someone can make insight into the innermost psychological workings of another person's behaviour without observing it through the lens of their own personal faults and neuroses.

Sick Boy said:

While I'm not too sure that this is exactly the case in that I think you can genuinly oppose something because it causes honest-to-god grief, uncomfort or displeasure to you (as in Mr. Tea's dislike of rude people), I can't see a way that someone can make insight into the innermost psychological workings of another person's behaviour without observing it through the lens of their own personal faults and neuroses.

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bingo