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Thread: Stewart Home vs Tony Wakefield

  1. #46
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    Dense question - is the contention here that Sol Invictus gigging has a direct impact on stuff like the BNP increasing their vote share or turnout for EDL things, or is it just that being unbelievably niche and esoteric doesn't give you carte blanche to be a fascist?

    The vibe that the people involved seem to be giving off is that - like in a traditional occult dust-up - something deeply significant is going on in a way that most people will never be aware of...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slothrop View Post
    Dense question - is the contention here that Sol Invictus gigging has a direct impact on stuff like the BNP increasing their vote share or turnout for EDL things, or is it just that being unbelievably niche and esoteric doesn't give you carte blanche to be a fascist?
    Definitely the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slothrop View Post

    The vibe that the people involved seem to be giving off is that - like in a traditional occult dust-up - something deeply significant is going on in a way that most people will never be aware of...
    It's a little scene and very paranoid, you're seeing arguments that have gone on for 30 years now still going on, so in that way it IS a traditional occult dust-up, regardless of people's occult doings within it, alot of these people have been working with each other - and solely with, and around, each other, cos no-one else cares, so in that sense you're bang on the money.

    John will know the dilly tho.

  3. #48
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    Stewart Home isn't involved with the site. Vimothy is correct about him being a rampant egotist (and I say this in the nicest possible way as someone who's been mates with him for 20 years!) so it isn't his style.

    I think it's complicated - I'm trying to write something about the Slimelight gig.

    Basically some aspects of neofolk act as a way of normalising fascist aesthetics and some fascist ideas.

    So there is usually no direct connection between fascist tendencies in neofolk and actual politics like the BNP and EDL. But it is an area for subtly promoting fascism at a cultural level. Which is not to say that anyone who like the music or dressing up is a fascist of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    Stewart Home isn't involved with the site. Vimothy is correct about him being a rampant egotist (and I say this in the nicest possible way as someone who's been mates with him for 20 years!) so it isn't his style.

    I think it's complicated - I'm trying to write something about the Slimelight gig.

    Basically some aspects of neofolk act as a way of normalising fascist aesthetics and some fascist ideas.

    So there is usually no direct connection between fascist tendencies in neofolk and actual politics like the BNP and EDL. But it is an area for subtly promoting fascism at a cultural level. Which is not to say that anyone who like the music or dressing up is a fascist of course.
    Are they normalising them though John? You could argue that they're marginalising them further. Or maybe that they've been marginalised within a margin, but I don't think liking any of the bands has spread beyond Hinouemena's roots, if anything it's got smaller and smaller. Normalising would suggest that this behaviour has spread? I don't want to be argumentative, just suggesting ideas.

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    This is going off, elsewhere:

    http://wildhunt.org/blog/2011/06/eso...new-right.html

    Troy Southgate has published some sort of Crowley anthology. God, don't these people just get *bored* of this shit? Am heartened that most commentators seem to against him, though there are always a few tiresome idiots.

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    people get a little upset that I won't argue about it.
    I won't, because it's almost impossible to do so.
    These opinions are simply what I've learned from the Spirits and that's the only "proof" I need.


    Wow.

    More here, occult fight fans! EDITED a bit out here as I think Scarlet Imprint's stance is great, and I think my sarcasm was unwarrented.

    http://scarletimprint.blogspot.com/2...-fascists.html
    Last edited by DannyL; 14-06-2011 at 11:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersloane View Post
    Are they normalising them though John? You could argue that they're marginalising them further. Or maybe that they've been marginalised within a margin, but I don't think liking any of the bands has spread beyond Hinouemena's roots, if anything it's got smaller and smaller. Normalising would suggest that this behaviour has spread? I don't want to be argumentative, just suggesting ideas.
    I certainly don't mind discussing it.

    Perhaps neofolk is on the wane, but there exists now a subculture that couldn't have happened prior to neofolk - a sort of quasi fascist goth enclave interested in all the shoddy philosophers like Evola that get bandied about.

    And there are repugnant ideas in that scene about race, especially. I've seen it argued on threads about neofolk and black metal that people aren't really racists they just believe in the preservation of the white race and don't like black and white people mixing. This is almost presented like it's an environmental issue or something.

    The social darwinist stuff about inferior poor people is also lurking in there, as I guess you know.

    So perhaps a better way of putting it is that these ideas have intensified and coalesced in that scene, whereas before it was all more vague - possibly because people were testing the water to see what they could get away with.

    I don't really have much of a grip on how popular it all is outside of the UK.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyL View Post
    This is going off, elsewhere:

    http://wildhunt.org/blog/2011/06/eso...new-right.html

    Troy Southgate has published some sort of Crowley anthology. God, don't these people just get *bored* of this shit? Am heartened that most commentators seem to against him, though there are always a few tiresome idiots.
    I'm pleasantly surprised by both those articles - I'm not going to wade through all the comments though.

    Good to see occultists rejecting wishy washy live and let live guff and take a firm position.

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    Yeah, the both the pieces themselves and actually the majority of the responses are heartening. I think the climate has genuinely changed, which to me feeds into the other ongoing discussion. It's the consistency of people "taking a stance" and challenging facism/homophobia etc (both the wishy washy chaos magic "it's all just a paradigm, man" and the I'm-so-trangressive "would anyone like to see my collection of Nazi memoribilia" positions) that feeds into the tone of these discussions.

    How "important" this is anyone's guess but as someone who likes to submerge himself in occult discourse ever now and again, it's nice that the stream isn't full of sewage.

    I'd add that this will lead to more minority voices being heard. I think you've got a climate now where one is likely to hear gay or transgender voices discussing their experiences of magic/occultism/paganism/whatever which isn't such a bad thing. There seem to be less voices from other ethnicities in the particular end of the subcultural paddling pool I'm talking about but why that might be is another discussion.
    Last edited by DannyL; 14-06-2011 at 11:31 AM.

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    Actually, yes, I think I was conflating this situation with the occasional arguments in avant-classical circles over whether (say) total serialism is an instrument of fascism or whether it's the only valid form of resistance to fascism. Even there people can start to get a bit close to actual racism (generally via a distaste for modern popular music and its 'blackness'), but the fascist / racist element in neofolk / gothic / occultism is much more explicit, even if it is confined to a fairly niche subculture...

    And I guess there's a connection here to Wyndham Lewis, Ezra Pound, and reactionary modernism in general?

  11. #56

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    I find the whole thing a bit strange, TBH. It would be excellent satire, but I guess it qualifies as self-parody instead. Spirit of the Age, wot.

    Scene police here: Have you renounced fascism?

    Yes, I renounce fascism.

    How very punk rock. And also a bit discoverthenetworks.org.

    But wait, have you also renounced crypto-fascism?

    Yes, I renounce crypto-fascism.

    And what of super-crypto-fascism? Our investigators have discovered that in the spring of '87 you released a limited edition flexi with Exploded Jewish Colon and the Nazi Testicle, who were known to be super-crypto-fascists and also friends at one time with the sister of Jorge Borge Jorge, Swiss CFO of the New Left Right Left Right Review--a notorious traditionalist-revolutionary pamphlet with literally hundreds of readers, which promoted race hate, paedophilia and traditional hand crafts.

    Oh, how embarrassing.

    Take him away!

    After the purge, when they've split the neofolk scene into good guys and bad guys, will the good guys still be allowed to play or listen to neofolk, I wonder--or will that automatically make you a suspect?

    I would like to go on record renouncing super-crypto-fascism.

    But you're wearing black clothes and a military belt! Not good enough, Nazi.

    [Trap door opens]

    Aaarrrggggh!

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    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    I certainly don't mind discussing it.

    Perhaps neofolk is on the wane, but there exists now a subculture that couldn't have happened prior to neofolk - a sort of quasi fascist goth enclave interested in all the shoddy philosophers like Evola that get bandied about.

    And there are repugnant ideas in that scene about race, especially. I've seen it argued on threads about neofolk and black metal that people aren't really racists they just believe in the preservation of the white race and don't like black and white people mixing. This is almost presented like it's an environmental issue or something.

    The social darwinist stuff about inferior poor people is also lurking in there, as I guess you know.

    So perhaps a better way of putting it is that these ideas have intensified and coalesced in that scene, whereas before it was all more vague - possibly because people were testing the water to see what they could get away with.

    I don't really have much of a grip on how popular it all is outside of the UK.
    I'm not sure it was more vague - I mean we always called the Fridays at the Red Rose 'Fascist Friday' - to Gaya's face. It's always been a dodgy and fascist scene - I don't understand why there is now what appears to be a larger concerted effort to stop these gigs - I mean Gaya's been putting on Sutcliffe Jugend and Sol Invictus for years and years now, at the Slimelight and elsewhere. I don't understand what's changed, other than anti-fascists waking up to it? Or has there been a resurgence? Maybe there has, it's hard for me to tell cos I'm kinda around it.

    Best way to combat it I found is to get in free and get drunk and laugh very hard in the face of the absurdly evil. Or start a band and VJ and play at all their nights . Same reason Sotos plays at their events, imho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    Jorge Borge Jorge
    lol

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    Shouldn't these guys be allowed to hold their gig, though?

    Even if they are genuine "fascists" or "nazis"?

    Whatever those words mean now. Apparently, they're synonymous with "plays in a neofolk band". Which is actually, while we're on our punk rock high horse, rather offensive. I would like to reserve the word Nazi for the actual Nazis. Call me a radical traditionalist here, but--

    Oh wait, no, I didn't mean it like that!

    [Trap door opens]

    Aaarrgh!

    Enjoy the lake of fire, you Nazi puke!

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