Martin Dust

Techno Zen Master
Ian Read is a knob.

I'm a bit disappointed by all this and yes, I do care, and no, I didn't know all this, despite... well, you know.

I thought Tibet and Freya were a bit more switched on than this. It's a bit more than just doing something silly as a teenager - it's deliberate entryism.

At some point I should write to Stewart and ask him to clarify that the IoT wasn't a fascist organisation and had some really good people in it.

I don't know Ian that well but I'm certainly not a fan of his music or the company he kept. I'm surprised that many people didn't suss what they where up to anyway - it's not that well hidden.

The IoT went tits went it was in the hands of Pete, he just wanted it to be the new OTO and I don't remember Ian running the IoT either, I thought Dave Lee took over after Pete gave up the ghost.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
The IOT is still going, but I've no idea how good or otherwise it is as it's always been a closed shop. I think this is a bit crap myself because it encourages introversion and would seem to prevent cross fertilisation with other groups.

I may write something about how the relativism of chaos magic can lead to fascism as if every paradigm is as good as another, what wrong with dabbling with the far right or a bit of holocaust denial? Which is something I've encountered in some of the more naive Chaos magicians on the web. Obviously, CM in itself doesn't necessarily take the fast train to Bechenwald but if you see this combined this with elitism and misanthropy (see Read's editorials for Chaos International), secrecy and connections with a load of people who have problems with their right arms.... I think you have to wonder.

For something completely different see this lecture at Treadwells tomorrow:

http://www.treadwells-london.com/lectures.asp

If any of y'all want to come better phone and book a place, as the talks tend to sell out.
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
Why is it that occultists have more arguments that lead to "I'm never talking to you again, so there" than any other social group around, that's what I wanna know.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Because they are ENLIGHTENED MASTERS bearing the BURDENS of the NU AEON on THIER OVERLOADED SHOULDERS which you would UNDERSTAND if you weren't one of TEH SHEEPLE

It's either that or ...

...the occult attracts marginalised and socially dysfunctional people and the practices involved sometimes produce hard to process experiences. Occult infighting is all part of the fun.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
To be fair, the same sort of fallings out manifest themselves in fringe politics.

Whilst the IOT isn't a fascist org per se the whole "belief as a tool" thing coupled with some of the personalities involved has made it a comfortable home for some racists and fascists in the past. And of course if you call people on that shit they have the neat get out clause of:

"oh I was just experimenting with an extreme right wing paradigm. That's why I always tell racist jokes / published an occult fascist magazine / went to a BNP meeting / did a ritual to get all of the immigrants out of my country" etc.

But yes, there were some good people involved as well - you just found yourself asking why they would hang around with idiots.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
What's the ritual for picking the Grand National winner?

I mean, fascism, whatever, but how do you select the lucky horse?

And don't say "it's an arcane secret"

I dunno - have you tried sticking a pin in the selection?
 

Martin Dust

Techno Zen Master
What's the ritual for picking the Grand National winner?

I mean, fascism, whatever, but how do you select the lucky horse?

And don't say "it's an arcane secret"

The ritual for betting against the odds and making a million is as always, start with 2 million.
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
To be fair, the same sort of fallings out manifest themselves in fringe politics.

S'funny, I was gonna add 'and politics' to my post.

I like magick people generally, my favourite wind up when coversation gets too heated is always the 'go on, boil a kettle then, go on'.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
there's no way that anyone would want to subvert folk music for some right wing agenda
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I think the line is crossed once you go from making folk music to making Volk music.
 

swears

preppy-kei
Were all those bands that slicked their hair back and dressed up like yuppies in the 80s flirting with near-right imagery? And wasn't their some brief micro-fad for Thatcher dresses and handbags a few years back?
 

connect_icut

Well-known member
I used to listen to a lot of England's Hidden Reverse-related music. I think I was taken by how genuinely outsider-y and underground it all seemed. Like, you were either really into it or you simply didn't know it existed. But I've increasingly been haunted by the feeling that this particular underground is a haven for actual, bona fide creeps. I feel really sad - for instance - that I can't bring myself to listen to Coil any more but... I can't even stand to talk about it, really... I'll shut up.
 

martin

----
I think I was taken by how genuinely outsider-y and underground it all seemed. Like, you were either really into it or you simply didn't know it existed.

I only really got familiar with C93/DIJ through seeing their records over and over again, at places like Sister Ray, Resurrection, Garageland, etc, while I was looking for other industrial stuff. Amusingly, the only person in the world who seemed to be writing about DIJ back then was...Stewart Home. I haven't got it now, but I'm sure there's a chapter in 'Defiant Pose' where he goes on about their 80s stuff and has a pop at liberal elitists who accused them of being nazis (my memory may be out on this). Then again, in retrospect, the lyrics to 'Death of the West' are kind of blatant, no?

I feel really sad - for instance - that I can't bring myself to listen to Coil any more but..

Why? I know there was some crossover with certain characters, ie guest appearances, but I don't think everyone who was involved in that scene should be automatically tainted, and Coil don't seem any more mixed up in all this than Annie Anxiety or Strawberry Switchblade...
 

connect_icut

Well-known member
Why? I know there was some crossover with certain characters, ie guest appearances, but I don't think everyone who was involved in that scene should be automatically tainted, and Coil don't seem any more mixed up in all this than Annie Anxiety or Strawberry Switchblade...

It's a different issue... Some of the stuff Sleazy's been saying recently just really disturbs and upsets me... I can't really talk about it... It's not fair of me to make judgements about people's personal choices... But I don't have to listen to his music either...
 
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