"Chav - the Musical"

bun-u

Trumpet Police
fwiw, friends who've lived for extended periods of time in both the UK and US have repeatedly told me that there is simply no exact equivalent for the "chav" style/phenomenon/culture/whatever in the US (no value judgment intended in that, just an anthropological observation). Similarities, shades of overlap, sure, but no examples of a one-to-one correspondence, certainly not the same as inner city "black" culture, etc etc, or so I've been told ...

I dunno - broadly speaking 'chav' is the UK equivalent of 'white trash'
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
fwiw, friends who've lived for extended periods of time in both the UK and US have repeatedly told me that there is simply no exact equivalent for the "chav" style/phenomenon/culture/whatever in the US (no value judgment intended in that, just an anthropological observation). Similarities, shades of overlap, sure, but no examples of a one-to-one correspondence, certainly not the same as inner city "black" culture, etc etc, or so I've been told ...

yeah, that's what i wondered. kinda weird to me that in the UK, what's generally equivalent to what American call "white trash" is culturally so much more in debt to black American culture...
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Not really odd - British youth culture has nearly always been heavily informed by black american culture. Has generally been done with more panache and innovation in the past though.

Unfortunately I feel that too many people have been really suckered by corporate ideas about 'urban' culture. And I don't believe that Burberry et all are really upset by their market share increasing so massively.

Sorry about the badly formed sentences. I blame my comprehensive education and the stupid working class inverted snobbery culture.
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
"And I don't believe that Burberry et all are really upset by their market share increasing so massively."
Yeah, I always wonder about that, you always read about how Burberry are unhappy with the wrong kind of people buying their clothes but really what's it to them if their image is changed because people are buying their stuff as long as they're buying it?
Maybe they think that by selling to "chavs" and disavowing it in the posh papers they can have their cake and eat it.
 

swears

preppy-kei
Phrases like "wannabe gangster" come up a lot - I think many people view it as a bad imitation of hip hop culture.

I don't know about that, I think a lot of it is just aspiring to be a drug dealer or gangster without the hip hop influence. Some white, working class kids want to be involved in crime because it's traditionally been seen as hard, masculine, rebellious, etc...
Not necessarily from listening to Jay-Z or whatever.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Did you ever think that some people say it's "sad" or "gay" to do well in school as a defense mechanism? Because they're not very intelligent, and they know it, so they know that if they do try, they will fail?

Maybe, but just because you're intent on failing school, that doesn't really justify bullying other kids to make sure they fail too.

And no matter how stupid you are, you won't fail as badly if you put some effort in than if you just give up. It's practically impossible to unintentionally fail a GCSE these days; I mean, if you have actually tryied, you'd have to be borderline retarded not to get a C or a D.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Although in the deep south I wouldn't be surprised if there has been some cross pollination in rural areas between hip-hop types and metal types.
Come on, Limb Bizkit weren't around that long ago that we're forgotten alreasy, surely? :)
 

tate

Brown Sugar
I dunno - broadly speaking 'chav' is the UK equivalent of 'white trash'
No, it is not an equivalent, because in a country (US) where millions upon millions of people from the south to the midwest to the northwest to the southwest etc, live in non-urban areas, the word 'white trash' can mean almost anything, depending on where you are and who's using it. To the city person, farmers may look like 'white trash'; to the farmers, poorer town kids can be called 'white trash'; to the rural citizen, badly behaved suburban white kids imitating bling culture can be called 'white trash'; and on and on and on ... there's a whole slew of regional terms for subdividing - rednecks, hoods, hoosiers, townies, hicks, and on and on and on - 'white trash' is just a stupid, noxious generalization/insult/cliche available to pretty much anyone to describe very, very different groups of styles, behaviors, local cultures ... there is no definitive content or stylistic signifiers ... nomad mentioned metal and 80s rock, but rural lower classes listen to country, classic rock, and hip-hop too, you just can't generalize ... my impression is that "chav" is much more specific than what I am describing above.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Maybe, but just because you're intent on failing school, that doesn't really justify bullying other kids to make sure they fail too.

And no matter how stupid you are, you won't fail as badly if you put some effort in than if you just give up. It's practically impossible to unintentionally fail a GCSE these days; I mean, if you have actually tryied, you'd have to be borderline retarded not to get a C or a D.

True. Like I hinted at above the culture of willful ignorance at the secondary (high) school I went to was just ridiculous. You had to be completely impervious to constant abuse if you were to be seen to try at all. Most of the teachers had given up anyway, at least the ones that hadn't had to quit due to nervous breakdowns or fear of assaults - so that just left the psychos. That kind of thing can seem quite funny in a nihilistic way when you're a kid but really it was a shock for me to see this incredibly self defeating attitude. It's like people have internalised class repression to the point where they just do it to themselves - and like crabs in a barrel try to claw back those that attempt to 'get above their station'.

British people find it hard to understand the race thing in the US and it's difficult for American's to get a handle on the class thing in the UK.
 
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noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
In my opinion and experience, garage/R&B is about as chavvy as music gets.

'appy 'arkore bruv. Except now it's Funky / Niche I spose.

Actually that's nonsense. There's no such thing as chav music, it's a pragmatic culture that goes with whatever is fun / buzzy / get you laid.
 
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swears

preppy-kei
In my opinion and experience, garage/R&B is about as chavvy as music gets.

Weird. Up north I always got the impression 2step/speed garage/R&B were quite classy, aspirational forms of music. Working class, but not uncouth. Listen to MJ Cole, doesn't get slicker than that!

I'd have to go with Happy Hardcore, or Cheesy/Hard House as being the most "chavvy" types of music. Fellas in white shirts smashing each other over the head with bottles of Stella, with "Castles in The Sky" blaring as the soundtrack.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Hmm. Thing is, I don't see chavvery as exclusively white, so I guess I'm thinking about the stuff the black and Bangladeshi rudebwoys listen to around my part of town.

Edit: and you've just made my day by using 'speed garage' and 'classy' in the same sentence. :D
 

tate

Brown Sugar
There are white trash people in the states, but mostly they live trailor parks (that's the stereotype, of course) in rural areas, not in housing projects in the inner city. They also wear completely different clothes and are into mostly metal and a lot of 80s sleaze rock rather than hip-hop. Although in the deep south I wouldn't be surprised if there has been some cross pollination in rural areas between hip-hop types and metal types.
Rural kids in remote areas of the US midwest were listening to hip-hop in the eighties. You know, they had radios and televisions/MTV too. Hip-hop, Michael Jackson, Duran Duran, Prince, Janet Jackson, Neneh Cherry, Bobby Brown, Human League, Flock of Seagulls, pop of all varieties - right alongside hair metal and country. I remember one particular school talent show around the time of Thriller that culminated in boys (farmers' kids, mostly) moonwalking back and forth across the stage doing their best Michael Jackson imitation (single glove and all), and I can assure that it wasn't parody, it was dead serious adoration, and the crowd went wild. :D
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Not really odd - British youth culture has nearly always been heavily informed by black american culture. Has generally been done with more panache and innovation in the past though.

Unfortunately I feel that too many people have been really suckered by corporate ideas about 'urban' culture. And I don't believe that Burberry et all are really upset by their market share increasing so massively.

Sorry about the badly formed sentences. I blame my comprehensive education and the stupid working class inverted snobbery culture.

there are tons of articles online citing execs from burberry, cristal, hennessey tons of these brands complaining about it. i'll dig some up, but i remember reading quite a few of em
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Rural kids in remote areas of the US midwest were listening to hip-hop in the eighties. You know, they had radios and televisions/MTV too. Hip-hop, Michael Jackson, Duran Duran, Prince, Janet Jackson, Neneh Cherry, Bobby Brown, Human League, Flock of Seagulls, pop of all varieties - right alongside hair metal and country. I remember one particular school talent show around the time of Thriller that culminated in boys (farmers' kids, mostly) moonwalking back and forth across the stage doing their best Michael Jackson imitation (single glove and all), and I can assure that it wasn't parody, it was dead serious adoration, and the crowd went wild. :D

Michael Jackson is hip-hop?
 
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