Suggest a Book for the dissensus book club!

John Doe

Well-known member
I certainly hope we haven't finished with Austerlitz yet - I feel we're just getting started!

I expected to finish reading it this week, but I've been bogged down with, y'know, stuff, and have been delayed. I'm almost finished though. I want to post some further reflections maybe over the weekend (esp about the images). Thanks for those of you posted a couple of kind remarks about my earlier posts - I hope we can kick on further soon.
 

you

Well-known member
Wow, lots of replies. Maybe seeing as people dont want to abandon Austerelitz just yet it would be cool to start thinking about a relevent non-fiction book like Barthes or something to fuel the dissusion whilst others finish Sebald off?

...and maybe choose a 2nd fiction book that complements or contrasts in an interesting way with Sebald?

In retrospect I think jenks is right, a long book may well be too hard to group read, because of the huge inconsistencies in how long people take to finish a book, spoilers with something like Bros K would be a minefield.
 
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Dial

Well-known member
"I think maybe here Sebald yokes two ideas together here very well - in some ways he even provides a kind of explanation for the pictures that inhabit the text. It is the idea that these memories arrive unbidden but cannot be forced, that the elusive nature of finding out who exactly he is has to be done in a tangential and allusive manner. That the straightforward approach will lead to nothing other than a 'darkening'."

I think you're on it here. To me it's a whole novel, in one sense at least, about that feeling when something is "on the tip of your tongue" and, as everyone knows, the best way to remember that thing is to think about something else and yet somehow not forget that you were trying to remember something.

Yes, and at the risk of more 'name dropping', albeit, the same name, this is exactly the ground of Camera Lucida. Rationality gives out in the search for the 'truth' of another/history/love, yet nonetheless this 'truth' emerges. Hence the 'impossible science', whose object of enquiry is impossible to define and thus impossible to provide a reliable means to arrive at. Beyond some variant of the, 'think about something else while keeping in mind one's aim'. Barthes formulation of the 'punctum' is a recognition that fundamentally vital truths cannot be regularised according to science.

Speaking of which, way back when I had to study a little philosophy of science I remember being very struck by a study of the Apollo Moon scientists. In the study they found that the most successful science came not from those who painstakingly worked their way forward, discarding failed/dis-proved theories along the way, but from one team in particular whose leader simply would not give up on his ideas despite all evidence in the early stages being to the contrary. Cool, uh. Its all the same ball park: the limits of the strictly rational. Which is not to say there are not grounds for being/knowledge, just that finding/inhabiting those grounds might involve loosening hold of the strictly rational and allowing a different relationship to reality. And while I'm on the topic, fuck rational fundamentalists like Richard Dawkins. (Sorry that was my own 'loosening hold' moment)

"As you can probably tell I'm not someone who works with an obvious 'theoretical position' i find it interesting when people say that he obviously knew his Barthes or Benjamin. I can't say my thoughts have cohered into a anything like a shape, i just find it all quite interesting batting this stuff around. I'm not dismissive of a theory based approach - i'm quite envious that someone has managed to have a framework with which they channel their thoughts - a unified vision, so to speak. My training/background is much more an old fashioned Lit crit, very I.A. Richards, Empson kind of chap i suppose."

Gracefully said. I have only a hazy notion of what I A Richards, Empson et al are about but I like what you say in the first excerpt above. I think you're being just a little disingenuous, though, about these gentlemen. They had a framework and a coherent approach I'm sure ?

Back to the photos: I'm well aware of what you say regarding Sebald's inclusion of photographs. He's trying to be all allusive and poetic, wot, like. They work in a rather intermittent fashion for me, thats all. Or rather they don't integrate with the text in a way that I find really works. Perhaps the new improved reading I'm going to embark upon will help.

Here's a book on how architecture should work in which image and text work wonderfully together.


The text is sparse and allusive but very much towards a point. The images are suggestive/atmospheric/even opaque at times yet the paper stock is excellent. The result is a book that successfully carries as actual physical object the intended meanings of the text.

It might just be an issue of paper stock for me. It would be interesting to go and check out some different editions of Camera Lucida and/or Roland Barthes by Roland Barthes. (the last is well worth reading) which both feature interplays of image and text. I recall the quality of the edition making a big difference.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Yes, and at the risk of more 'name dropping', albeit, the same name, this is exactly the ground of Camera Lucida. Rationality gives out in the search for the 'truth' of another/history/love, yet nonetheless this 'truth' emerges. Hence the 'impossible science', whose object of enquiry is impossible to define and thus impossible to provide a reliable means to arrive at. Beyond some variant of the, 'think about something else while keeping in mind one's aim'. Barthes formulation of the 'punctum' is a recognition that fundamentally vital truths cannot be regularised according to science."
OK, you've convinced me, I'll read the Camera thing. Be interesting to compare and contrast.

"Speaking of which, way back when I had to study a little philosophy of science I remember being very struck by a study of the Apollo Moon scientists. In the study they found that the most successful science came not from those who painstakingly worked their way forward, discarding failed/dis-proved theories along the way, but from one team in particular whose leader simply would not give up on his ideas despite all evidence in the early stages being to the contrary. Cool, uh. Its all the same ball park: the limits of the strictly rational."
Well that's an interesting story but my guess is that most people who work that way won't get so far.
 

jenks

thread death
I was thinking about Austerlitz again yesterday whilst out on my bike.

Someone had said about how in some ways it was a book about the Holocaust without it actually being mentioned. I wonder if this is because, as Morrissey said in an entirely different context, the story is old. We know what happened, we've been 'final solutioned' via all forms of art and any kind of straight telling becomes less telling. I like the fact taht things are implicit, he never discusses jewishness or anti-semitism.

The closest we come to confronting the camps is the inventories at tehnghetto museum and at the Austerlitz Gallery but again it's about the ghostly presence of people through their possessions rather than through something tangible. Absences standing in for presences.

(I know that there is some Benjamin stuff on the Galleries in Paris - would he fit in here?)

In a way it becomes about the effects of the Nazis programme of extermination - the erasure of a man's past and his connection to that familial link which might have grounded him. sorry fizzling out here - it seemed so much clearer when i was pedaling along!
 

you

Well-known member
Nah jenks, totally.

The fading of people/history through the nazis extermination of various things ( people, documents, histories etc )..... this was certainly mirrored in his frustrating struggle with the library that made it impossible to find anything out. Also the wonderful metaphor of there being a graveyard behind his london home he never knew about..... these are all great examples of the burrying of histories..... but woven throughout all this are these wonderful signs and triggers tugging at are are unconcious with vague semiotics... slowly giving the reader the feeling...the notion of what really happened... the real underlying tragedy.

The defensive architecture spiel at the beginning is a another wonderful example, obviously its a metaphor of his academia being a defense but the way his defense is a interest in defense evoke exactly that in the reader.... impermiable feelings, hidden insides etc etc

I havent really expressed this well, its late...... and ive just been thoroughly numbed by Sin City, what a waste of 2 hours.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"The defensive architecture spiel at the beginning is a another wonderful example, obviously its a metaphor of his academia being a defense but the way his defense is a interest in defense evoke exactly that in the reader.... impermiable feelings, hidden insides etc etc"
That's a really good point, I'm sure that's right but I totally missed it, probably because that bit occurs before you know anything about what Austerlitz is like and by the time you do I had forgotten that seemingly inconsequential speech.

"Someone had said about how in some ways it was a book about the Holocaust without it actually being mentioned. I wonder if this is because, as Morrissey said in an entirely different context, the story is old. We know what happened, we've been 'final solutioned' via all forms of art and any kind of straight telling becomes less telling. I like the fact taht things are implicit, he never discusses jewishness or anti-semitism."
Yeah, I think I said almost exactly that didn't I? Because we all know so well what happened he doesn't need to describe it. Just by mentioning the time, the places he came from, his name etc it's virtually there - it's very similar to the effect that people often mention about how dubstep can miss beats out and people virtually hear them (and dance to them) because they are suggested by the shape of the tune and the history of how the genre developed.
 

petergunn

plywood violin
. As far as I know some people haven't finished (and maybe aren't going to, I'm thinking especially of Mixed_Biscuits and PeterGunn who didn't seem that impressed) but

i actually have avoided clicking on this thread as i just have not gotten that deep into it... the word that comes to mind is "precious"... that said, i do intend to finish it at some point... something about it reminds me of Uwe Johnson, but not in a good way...
 

jenks

thread death
Seems pretty clear this is fizzling out

What's up next?

quite like the idea of some non-fiction but am happy to go with everyone else - do we want nominations or what?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Well, if no-one else has anything more to say then I am definitely up for doing another one. My personal vote would be to choose another one from the previous list so we don't have to faff around too much getting more nominations but I'm not too bothered if people have a strong preference.
 

you

Well-known member
Yeah, while this this thread is fizzing out, I have ordered camera lucida and intend to post any relevent comments regarding Austerltiz if any come to mind. I dont know if anyone else is heading on Barthes, idlerich?

That said id still be, like, stoked, dude... to read, like, another novel..
 

jenks

thread death
This was the original shortlist:

Pat Barker - Regeneration
Don DeLillo - Mao II
Fyodor Dostoevsky - Brothers Karamasov
Fyodor Dostoevsky - Crime and Punishment
Thomas Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow
W G Sebald - Austerlitz
David Foster Wallace - Infinite Jest

It'd be good to know who is still 'in' - much interest was initially expressed but fewer people posted than nominated/voted.

I'd like to do Mao II or Regeneration Trilogy most out of what's there but if someone's got a new idea, then I'm game.

Just got Ackroyd's book on The Thames and Nature Cure by Mabey both of which would give good debate round these parts
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
!Yeah, while this this thread is fizzing out, I have ordered camera lucida and intend to post any relevent comments regarding Austerltiz if any come to mind. I dont know if anyone else is heading on Barthes, idlerich?"
I'm gonna give that a go I reckon but more as part of the aftermath of Austerlitz I suppose. I'd definitely like to have a go at another novel from the list and even if there is as much discussion as of Austerlitz I think it's still worthwhile.
Hands up who is in for another one I say.
 

you

Well-known member
A friend has been going on and on and on and on about Pat Barker for ages now and last week she gave me "Regeneration" urging me to give it a go.

So i would love to group read that!

Also I think whichever book is chosen we should immediately start a thread for it.
 

Octopus?

Well-known member
I do apologize for the lack of commenting...I did have a chance to read "Austerlitz" but it was in a very scattered and rushed fashion due to my house catching fire immediately after the start of the book club, followed by an ongoing period of exile. Greatly looking forward to scanning the comments/giving the wonderful book a closer reading when I have more time, though. A few moments of internet time a day have prohibited any further indepth participation in, well, anything. I'll gracefully bow out of the next read as well.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"I do apologize for the lack of commenting...I did have a chance to read "Austerlitz" but it was in a very scattered and rushed fashion due to my house catching fire immediately after the start of the book club, followed by an ongoing period of exile."
People will let the smallest thing put them off. Er, I mean, hope that you are ok and didn't lose all your worldly possessions.

Anyway, looks as though we have a fait accompli and we're reading Pat Barker's regeneration.... suits me, I'll try and get my hands on it this week. Maybe someone should start a thread (if they haven't already).
 

Dial

Well-known member
Great to see that some are going on to read Camera Lucida. Be warned you will not find it entirely seamless in its logic. Enjoy.

I too have run out of steam on Austerlitz, for the moment, but it has inspired me to want to read Benjamin's, Berlin Childhood Around 1900


And in a nod to those who have a hankering for non-fiction. This is at the top of of my to read list: The Shia Revival: How conflicts within Islam will Shape the Future by Vali Nasr.


And a final word (?) on Austerlitz: a friend wrote me a couple of days ago and said..

I was just thinking that one of the charms for me of Austerlitz is the fact that the whole book is framed as a endless bar story. "I was sitting in a pub 12 years later and who should walk in but Austerlitz and he sat down next to me and picked up the conversation where he had left it off. .

Made me laugh, at least.
 
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