how to deal with ignorance

Z

zhao

there are no accidents
i think this is one of the most important things one has to learn -- how do you deal with people who have the conceit, arrogance, and self righteousness which comes with ignorance. often the most adamant and self assured people are the most misinformed and convoluted, acting out of fear without knowing it.

1 mild and 1 less mild example:

took some friends to a micro-sound/improvised music concert. we saw only the tail end of the first performance, maybe 30 seconds, before a break, during which we grab a beer and one of my friends goes and gets her money back from the door guy, who was very nice if a bit surprised, and says to us "if this is music then there is something very wrong with the world. all these people are just afraid to call this bullshit bullshit, sitting there pretending to like this stupid pretentious crap."

i laughed and said "but we only saw 30 seconds of the end of it" and she says "that's more than enough."

a few years ago i would have said something like:

it is easy to attack, to belittle, and to insult that which is beyond your understanding, and it makes people feel smarter than they actually are. I personally have devoted many years of my life to this kind of music, and i know that the people who make it do it out of love and devotion, they work hard and sacrifice many things in their lives to be able to create work like this without any compensation. like everything else, sometimes it's good, sometimes not so good. you don't have to like it, but the least you can do is show some respect, and not to judge someone's art after only 30 seconds. all you are doing is broadcasting is your own ignorance.
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but i didn't. i just shrugged, exchanged a knowing smile with other friends, and left it at that. is it the right thing to do? i think it is, i think it's supposed to be sign of maturity... it's not necessary to create tension among friends, to have differences is normal...

but i keep fucking thinking about it afterwards, it bugs me that i didn't say it. maybe i'll send her an email...

what would you have done?

second example later.... out of time
 
swears

swears

preppy-kei
If somebody is more intelligent* than you, then they'll probably come up with a totally cogent argument and you'll be "wrong". If somebody isn't as intelligent as you, they'll usually be too stupid to see that they've lost the argument and dismiss anything you say as bollocks, so you're "wrong" again. In the case of music this is all ten times worse, because the arguments are so abstract and there is no empirical evidence that you can pull out to "prove" music X is better than music Y.

As with most awkward social situations, it's better to just ignore someone being pissy and pretend there isn't a situation at all. ;)

*I realise you can't always quantify "intelligence" in such simple terms, but you see what I'm getting at.
 
M

martin

----
zhao said:
is it the right thing to do? i think it is, i think it's supposed to be sign of maturity... it's not necessary to create tension among friends, to have differences is normal...

but i keep fucking thinking about it afterwards, it bugs me that i didn't say it. maybe i'll send her an email...

what would you have done?
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I'd have done the same as you, it's definitely not worth losing a friend over music. I went to see Mark Stewart, the Aphex Twin and Whitehouse a couple of years ago with someone and he spent 2am to 4am slagging it off as rubbish - so what? Don't get me wrong, I like a good musical argument down the pub as well as anyone, but I don't think your friend's necessarily displaying 'ignorance', just an opinion. Don't send her an email, what good will that do? She'll think you're crackers, and no matter how much you like the music, it's not as if she's slurred your character. Surely part of the fun's that other people hate stuff you like, otherwise you'd just end up listening to Radio 1 24/7?

The ignorance that pisses me off is more stuff like people shoving each other on the tube, not saying thanks when you hold a door open for them (cunts!), not saying 'please' or 'thank you' or equivalents when ordering drinks or food - regardless of who they are. It's then I wish I could go back in time and slam the door in their face, or worse. I can keep a lid on it most of the time, but every now and then I'll bring it up and shoot off on some loud-mouthed lecture. In Thailand, the river boats have 'Monks only' standing sections and yet you always see some stupid Western woman turning up there because it's her 'right' to be comfortable and have space. Actually, the Thais have the right idea - snap at them in the bar or shove them and snarl, and they simply ignore and refuse to serve you.
 
you

you

Well-known member
you should buy her a gift as an apology for spoiling her evening, im sure Girls Aloud have a new album out.
 
C

crackerjack

Well-known member
what would you have done?
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Ten years ago I'd have agreed with your mate. Now I'm old and a bit more open-minded I'd just join her in the refund queue and suggest we go for a drink till the gig's done.
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
zhao said:
what would you have done?
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I've gotten much less tolerant as I get older, and have gone from wanting to not give a fuck to just not, so in this case I think I woulda kicked her up the cunt and showed her the true meaning of ignorance lol, just for being rude really. Fair enough she didn't like it, but I really, really hate people who ask for their money back, it's just like oh don't ever pay for anything that might be a risk then... given how into all that stuff you are, her reaction seems a bit trite. But I wouldn't go back and write an email, if you don't have it out at the time just drop it and move on, ultimately no biggie in the grand scheme of things. Or you could send her an anonymous picture of a 10 year old child with AIDS, make her feel bad randomly.
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
any "opinion" based on 30 seconds of experience of an artist's work, which includes a complete dissmissal of an entire genre of art-making with decades of history and thousands of practitioners, can only attest to the ignorance of the person broadcasting it.

period.
 
Slothrop

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Yeah, the thing that pisses me off in these situations isn't someone not liking something, it's when they confidently announce that the whole thing is based on pretentiousness and charlatanry and people tossing out any old shit because they know it'll sell rather than just accept that some people enjoy things that they don't enjoy.

Slight aside: this gets really weird when you're talking about micro micro scenes - people are convinced that the perpetrators of this great hoax are living on yachts lighting cigars with fifty pound notes based on the proceeds of 'conning people into thinking that seventeen minutes of random yibbling noises is great music'.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
zhao said:
any "opinion" based on 30 seconds of experience of an artist's work, which includes a complete dissmissal of an entire genre of art-making with decades of history and thousands of practitioners, can only attest to the ignorance of the person broadcasting it.
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Sure, they might be ignorant of the genre as a socio-historical phenomenon and thus dismiss the scene around it as a charade (because their experience of life can't account for it), but this dismissal is prompted by subjective aesthetic repulsion - valid for those 30 seconds and probably more (given that the things about the music that they don't like during those 30 secs would be more than likely to repeat thenceforth) - and likely only to be changed by a gentler introduction to the material. Just humour them.
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Does the person in question usually judge things so quickly? I think there's a big difference between someone who habitually gives artforms/things in general that are new to them a chance, but who sometimes has blind spots (I count myself as one of these: I had to leave a concert by Wolfeyes(?) because it was doing my head in), and someone who has extremely and frustratingly narrow taste boundaries.

If this person is the first type, I'd say maybe you're taking this too personally. If the second, fuck her (not literally; although I'm sure some people are attracted to people who are in violent disagreement with them).
 
B

bassnation

the abyss
zhao said:
any "opinion" based on 30 seconds of experience of an artist's work, which includes a complete dissmissal of an entire genre of art-making with decades of history and thousands of practitioners, can only attest to the ignorance of the person broadcasting it.

period.
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when i'm buying vinyl i frequently give an artist / genre less than 30 seconds of listening time before dismissing it. life is too short to give everything huge amounts of attention, especially some dodgy laptop idm - i've seen so many bad laptop sets now my mind kind of switches off as soon as the glitch starts. maybe shes the same?

give us the second example then.

agree with martin re. his annoyances, but would regard this as bad manners or rudeness, rather than ignorance.
 
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john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
I think the best way to deal with these things is to allow them to settle and see if they re-emerge at a later date rather than turn them into a row.

If it crops up again you can tell her why you like it, which might lead to a more interesting conversation. I work with someone who does paintings and he hates abstract art (he's been to the Tate Modern, etc) but we once had quite an interesting chat about why and how art can move beyond direct representation of "things".

Probably more rewarding for both of you to have a chilled out discussion about what music IS than get all pistols at dawn about a specific incident.

Having said that, there is little point me adopting this approach with Martin vis a vis white MCs. :)
 
STN

STN

sou'wester
john eden said:
Having said that, there is little point me adopting this approach with Martin vis a vis white MCs. :)
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Have you seen that chap Tuggawar? He will make Martin beside himself with rage. I heard one of his tunes and thought it was quite good. He looks a bit of a plum on his album cover though.
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
STN said:
Have you seen that chap Tuggawar? He will make Martin beside himself with rage. I heard one of his tunes and thought it was quite good. He looks a bit of a plum on his album cover though.
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Link, please! [sorry for derailment, Zhao]
 
STN

STN

sou'wester
Here you go: http://www.tuggawar.com/ kind of annoying as I was saving the name Tugowar for my Manowar tribute act.

Re ignorance (as feel bad about derailment) I think the perfect punishment for being ignorant is being allowed to remain so, so I often just leave them to it (unless their ignorance will have a negative impact on other people's lives in which case I rap them on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper). It doesn't sound like your mate behaved that badly, though claiming to know that everyone's only pretending to like something is rather irritating.
 
B

bassnation

the abyss
STN said:
Here you go: http://www.tuggawar.com/ kind of annoying as I was saving the name Tugowar for my Manowar tribute act.

Re ignorance (as feel bad about derailment) I think the perfect punishment for being ignorant is being allowed to remain so, so I often just leave them to it (unless their ignorance will have a negative impact on other people's lives in which case I rap them on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper). It doesn't sound like your mate behaved that badly, though claiming to know that everyone's only pretending to like something is rather irritating.
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yeah, but you've got to admire the cut of her polemic, surely. i reckon she'd fit in fine here.
 
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