kids these days

Well to add to the incoherency, I was having a discussion with a friend on another message board about the eleven year old in Liverpool today, and here's a c/p of one of my posts that covers my take on it (albiet a reply to something he said, and so a little out of context):

'I agree, and there are countless case of kids who live on pissy estates and don't turn to gun crime. My best mate for example grew up on a South London estate with rapes a gonzo, and he spent his spare time playing club football and cricket and is currently trading in the city. But I still think it's hugely unfair to punish a thirteen year old who probably has got a gun out of a combination of naivety, fear and a desire to be a big kid - all huge parts of my character, and I think most kids' at that age; except with me it was wanting to play footie with the older kids and get into pubs, not be able to protect myself with a gun. And I think a big part of that was that I grew up with a stable family (which is a good point you bring up- my parents are divorced [this was in response to him saying ethnicity and lack of father figures being just as big as factor as income], but both have always been there) and went to a school that generally had good kids.

The games and music scapegoat is just an easy target that's been done before; they certainly don't help but I'd imagine for every one kid that has considered shooting or stabbing because of a video game, there are two or three hundred who have considered doing it before of gang/intimidation related circumstances. And that's the thing; when you're living in estates like this there's a select few of the teenagers who don't grow up and become half-decent people, they make their living through gangs and intimidation, and that affects the youth around them more than anything, joining gangs to get in with that crowd or forming them to defend themselves from them.

And like all things (not just violence related; the amount of teens I've seen doing drugs that I wouldn't have touched at fifteen, but that's more of an upper class and I think far less important problem), in the last five years the people involved have just got younger. And so ultimately, so do the victims.'

He also recommends John Pitt's Reluctant Gangsters: Youth Gangs in Waltham Forest

rockypoppy2 said:

but what is it about kids living in "pissy estates" that makes them feel this way inclined (violence/drugs etc...) is it just the lack of the family unit/role model/stability or are there deeper reasons like lack of space for freedom of expression/a consumerist society dangling aspirations just out of their reach or lack of living space

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I think living space is a bit part of it: not in the sense that you're in a small flat but the fact that you can't access your flat without going via a central building or whatever, so you're inevitably greeted by the same people, every day, there's no sense of retreatment, if someone wants to batter you they know exactly where you'll be coming in. And whether people are waiting to mug/taunt/beat you there or it's just the frustration of not being able to get away from their presence (bar shutting yourself in your room), that's just going to put you in a permanent state of annoyance/resentment/fear.

rockypoppy2 said:

ack of ... freedom of expression/a consumerist society dangling aspirations just out of their reach

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This is also big: not just because of the physical amount of opportunities (I mean what can you do if things are shitty at home, cinema/sport aside, that doesn't involve hanging around your estate or going to a naff youth club), but the cultural oppression that exists: if someone wants to say, paint, and they're young and live in a rough estate, then they're inevitably going to keep it a secret to avoid teasing- which just leads to more resentment...

I think a lot of the stuff about estates above is quite naive. There are loads of families who live on estates and they can be as unstable or stable as anywhere else.

If you live in suburbia in a victorian house then you probably see your neighbours on the road just as much and can get battered accordingly. If you go to school then people know where to find you anyway.

I think in some cases on estates there can be a lack of responsibility for communal areas (pissing in the lift, graff etc) which can make it all feel pretty fucked up.

We also need to look at how housing policy has changed. Before right to buy people grew up on estates and there could be a real sense of community (for good and bad) because there wasn't a lot of movement.

Right to buy has lead to a hell of a lot of sub-letting (and "white flight"). One flat in my block has new tenants in every 6 months or so.

There are also issues around doing away with "sons and daughters" policies and the fact that no new council housing is being built. This has basically lead to a situation where people who have families will inevitably end up with over crowded flats. Their kids will not be able to get a flat of their own from the council, and they will not really be able to rent on the open market in many cases. The regs about what constitutes over crowding are ridiculous from what I can remember.

I think, though, that most of the above is not as relevant as the general desperation and sense of not having a future in young people today. Where they live can compound this, but the fundamentals are that if you start out poor you will stay that way, and that you will have to work really hard just to keep your head above water. Plus, there is fuck all to do - not even a shit youth club in most instances, because the funding for them has been cut by the local councils.

Yeah ok fair enough. I think London is a special case, though...

Yes going to libraries is an option if you are "bookish". And yes going to the park is also an option (tho it can get very territorial). And indeed you see kids in both those places...

But it does depend on what you want to do. Some kids near me do just seem to want to hang out and smoke weed, but I dunno if they are there all the time - they might spend their days in the library reading Orwell for all I know.

I dunno maybe it's good to hang out somewhere you belong as well? People do get kicked out of libraries and community centres for being a bit raucous and non-swotty.

If you live in suburbia in a victorian house then you probably see your neighbours on the road just as much and can get battered accordingly. If you go to school then people know where to find you anyway.

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I don't know, my dad lived on a posh road in Epping when I was growing up, and people there never interacted with their neighbours; there was nowhere near the sense of knowing everybody there and everybody knowing you than I've found in estates. Same thing with where I currently live in Hackney. Also if you're living in a victorian house then there's more escapist opportunities because a) your family are more likely to holiday regularly, and b) it's simply a bigger house. If people wanted to batter you there they could, but it's much less likely to happen without the estate situation of a large amount of people cramped into a small space and the consequences of that...

john eden said:

I dunno maybe it's good to hang out somewhere you belong as well? People do get kicked out of libraries and community centres for being a bit raucous and non-swotty.

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There's always groups of 13-14 year olds in my local library giving the old ladies who work there shit. I pop in now again after work to grab something top read on the train, and there's some little twat in a Lacoste tracksuit shouting at the top of his voice or pushing shelves over. I think the library system is a fantastic asset and it's depressing to see anyone spoil it.

The problem is that often kids don't want an adult-organised, safe place to go, they get enough of that at school. They want to trespass and rebel and cause shit, because that's more exciting than playing ping pong and drinking orange squash supervised by youth workers. When I was 12-16 all I wanted to do was explore disused wasteground, farmer's fields, schools and buildings that had been closed for the weekend, etc, usually while smoking fags and getting pissed. I tended not to give people grief, though.

A very brief list of things I think are contributing to this situation, in no particular order, are:

- the fact that many parents spend so little time with their kids: they might eat together (although that's often in front of the TV - not exactly great for conversation) and then after dinner the kids just carry on watching TV, go outside to play/hang around with other kids or go upstairs to play computer games or muck about on the Interweb. Nothing wrong with any of those things in themselves, but if it's to the exclusion of contact with parents, then that's got to have a negative effect. When that report came out recently about how Britain has the EU's most fucked-up kids, one of the things mentioned was how kids on the Continent generally spend a lot more time with their parents, talking about stuff, learning how to behave decently (and how to drink alcohol responsibly - glasses of wine with dinner vs. cans of cider in the park...) - plus the obvious fact that if kids who're used to talking to their parents are bothered by something, it's going to be much easier for them to discuss it, and hopefully resolve it. Also, parents are more likely to know what their kids are up to: obviously, teenagers need some level of privacy and independence, but it's nonetheless important for parents to be aware if their kids are getting into trouble, drinking a lot or whatever.

- the lack of fathers, or worthwhile father figures, especially fathers of black kids. This has already been mentioned...

- ...as has the effects of cramming people into shitty delapidated tower blocks...

- and I think the league-table culture among schools is really not helping either, since any school deemed to be 'failing' (and who knows, that could be due to a favourite teacher leaving for a year to have a baby) is then branded for all to see, so parents who can afford to leave the area do so, raising house prices in areas with better schools, and only kids from less well-off families go to the 'failing' school, they're less well-behaved so many of the teachers leave to work at a school in a better area, and soon the school really is failing.

Mr. Tea said:

and only kids from less well-off families go to the 'failing' school, they're less behaved so many of the teachers leave to work at a school in a better area, and soon the school really is failing.

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Aye, that's why I'm no longer at my NE London comp, now safely ensconced in a fee-paying prep school.

There are teachers who *can* deal with the incredibly poor behaviour you can get in this type of school, but they are few and far between (and even then, they might just be skilled at behaviour management and little else). Contrary to media representation, tough schools can often have a backbone of excellent and *very* committed staff, as anybody who isn't up to scratch jumps out of the nearest window and legs it within the first week.

What I couldn't believe was the unbelievable unhelpfulness of 95% of the children - the failure to do the little things that ease the progress of the whole (throw away their litter; help a classmate with a stack of books; not set off the fire alarm for fun etc).

rockypoppy2 said:

why do you think this is the case...

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I'd guess it's probably a combination of all the things you mention.

As as mixed_miscuits says, it's often a constant uphill struggle for teachers to maintain any sort of order in schools as the kids have grown up in a home environment with no structure or discipline, which is then exacerbated by a school culture where it's 'sad' to obey rules, work hard, be (seen to be) clever and so on.

no more than a Sick Media Obsession with DEAD KIDS distorting perceptions and priorities in society? absolutely ineffective in creating any actual improvement in conditions for children

glorious martyr saint maddie

john eden said:

cases on estates there can be a lack of responsibility for communal areas (pissing in the lift, graff etc) which can make it all feel pretty fucked up.

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Sorry to interrupt, but wtf is up with this? On the estate I live in, the lifts get mopped every day, but by the end of the day BOTH lifts are pissed in. I really wish I understood how this happens, or the psychology of someone who pisses in a lift.

The lifts are tiny, so you're likely to get piss all over your shoes, and then also there is a good chance the doors will open and someone will see you pissing in a lift. I understand being drunk as fuck probably helps alleviate both of these concerns, but surely the bushes 10ft from the lift through the door would be a better option.

WHAT IS IT ABOUT LIFTS THAT IS SO CONDUSIVE TO PISSING GOD DAMN IT?!