crackerjack

Well-known member
As for Totti, how did I forget the Lucas Neill thing in the last world cup? I had it in my head that he'd retired from internationals after the Euros prior to that, but if there's one thing this topic's proved it's that I'm not prepared to let facts get in the way of a good argument... ;)

Ha ha
 

tom pr

Well-known member
In defense of Gerrard - and I say this as a Man Utd fan - you have to say... Champions of Europe, 2005.
Thing is, you could also say Lampard: England's best player and top scorer in the last Euros.

Doesn't mean it applies now...
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
but they're not getting any younger and I don't think we're going to get it from them in a white shirt with this current set-up

They shouldn't be playing in the same central midfield without a dedicated holding player (Hargreaves) behind them, agreed.

So I think it's time to ditch both.

Madness.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"What, it's realism to claim Gattuso is a better player than Gerrard, or that England haven't underacheived in this group, that on player named the Champions League's best in 2005, and another named 2nd best player in the world the same year have nothing more to offer than we saw in these games?"
Or to claim that sometimes teams aren't unlucky to lose or lucky to win?
Crackerjack, one hundred percent spot on. The (commendable) attempt to avoid jingoism can lead to some dumb conclusions if you take it to extremes. That's my problem with a load of the Guardian sports writing. Well, one of my problems.

"but if there's one thing this topic's proved it's that I'm not prepared to let facts get in the way of a good argument..."
We're talking about football mate. Any other way just wouldn't be right.
 

tom pr

Well-known member
Said flatmate made a good point about Croatia actually: it's probably helped them a lot that Bilic was Under 21s coach, and so moved on from coaching Modric/Corluka/etc on a regular basis there to managing them at full international level. I don't know how many years he's coached Croatia's young contingent for, but I imagine it's a longer time than most developing England players stay with the same international manager...
 

tom pr

Well-known member
They shouldn't be playing in the same central midfield without a dedicated holding player (Hargreaves) behind them, agreed
The problem with Gerrard, even with a dedicated holding midfielder there (which granted, Barry isn't), is that when he gets a sniff of that captain's armband he seems so obsessed with winning games on his own that he's bombing back to take the ball off the defenders and try hollywood balls to the box. It's like you've got a holding midfielder to play that role man, just stay up the pitch and concentrate on supporting the lone striker, which is where you're actually effective!
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Gerrard is a great player in the right circumstances and so is Lampard, but for whatever reason they're not doing it at international level"
That is exactly the point I've been trying to make for the last three pages. I think it ought to be obvious to anyone (except Boombox) that that is the case and that people should move on to the question - why?

"I don't reach my conclusions by a circuitous route. I simply watch his individual performance and judge it. Anyway, I don't believe any team is far superior to Croatia."
I disagree. Of course we'll see next summer in terms of international sides but do you seriously think they are anything like the level of the best club sides? For example, their first goal was scored by Kranjcar, he plays for Portsmouth. Do you think he would get in the Barcelona side or be first choice at Milan? I don't. Why not? Because the competition for places at Barcelona is tougher than it is for Croatia, or, more simply, because Barcelona (and Milan, Manchester Utd and a million other sides) are a different class from Croatia.
That's why the important question is, why can't a team full of players who can (and do) get in the first-team at United beat a team full of players that couldn't? Don't you think that question is worth asking?

"I don't know how many years he's coached Croatia's young contingent for, but I imagine it's a longer time than most developing England players stay with the same international manager..."
Can't be that long 'cause he was playing in the premiership not too far back. Or is time just running away with me?
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Can't be that long 'cause he was playing in the premiership not too far back. Or is time just running away with me?

Well he was certainly there (with Everrton, W Ham?) when he did his infamous dying swan impression after being lightly brushed by Blanc in 1998. He didn't last long after that.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Well he was certainly there (with Everrton, W Ham?) when he did his infamous dying swan impression after being lightly brushed by Blanc in 1998. He didn't last long after that."
Fuck, ten years. He played for Everton I'm sure, he was a good player, a stalwart of my fantasy league side who was cheap but could be relied upon to weigh in with the odd headed goal from a corner.
 
but do you seriously think they are anything like the level of the best club sides?

I said there are no teams far superior to Croatia which is what you suggested.

why can't a team full of players who can (and do) get in the first-team at United beat a team full of players that couldn't?

I count ZERO from the team that played on Wednesday who play for United.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"I said there are no teams far superior to Croatia which is what you suggested."
None of their players would get into the Barcelona (or Milan or Utd etc) team. If every one of your players is better than every one of the opposition's players that makes you far superior in my book.

"I count ZERO from the team that played on Wednesday who play for United."
United, Chelsea, Liverpool whatever. Here is what I said yesterday:

"If no-one was injured England would probably have most if not all of the following players (off the top of my head): Neville, Rooney, Ferdinand and Hargreaves (from United) along with Crouch and Gerrard (from Liverpool) and Cole, Terry, Cole and maybe Lampard (from Chelsea). In other words, the majority of the players would be drawn from teams that would take the piss out of the sides the personnel of Israel, Russia or even Croatia play for - yet somehow they can't do the same when they pull on a white shirt. Why is that?"
A question you've desperately tried to evade, for what reason I'm not quite sure.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
We were talking about why England couldn't beat Croatia on Wednesday. It isn't hypothetical.

Oh, I see, so it's your contention that England are actually a top level team who were devastated by injuries on Wednesday. Why didn't you say so earlier?
 

tom pr

Well-known member
We were talking about why England couldn't beat Croatia on Wednesday. It isn't hypothetical.
Yes, but they've been shit the entire campaign, with or without United players. I really don't know why you even picked that hole about no United players being there on Wednesday when we've been dreadful regardless of it. (Edit: not to mention the fact you could easily replace United with Chelsea or Liverpool...)
 
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mixed_biscuits

_________________________
The England players are only good at club level when surrounded by capable foreigners who tend to be better at controlling the ball and play in general.

Which reminds me: we don't have a playmaker.
 
A question you've desperately tried to evade, for what reason I'm not quite sure.

I have answered it. You just don't accept my answers.

In other words, the majority of the players would be drawn from teams that would take the piss out of the sides the personnel of Israel, Russia or even Croatia play for

The only proof we have of how those eleven English players would and should do against eleven Croatian players is two matches:

Croatia 2 England 0
England 2 Croatia 3

They play for a different team with a different style with no support from the rest of the world. There is no great mystery. The international game is different. It is less intense and predicated on patience, movement and creativity. Arsenal, our Premier League leaders have stumbled upon the way to win. No English. Why did Eriksson look like a bad manager for England? The players. Why does he look good at Manchester City? He has the raw materials there. As he said himself: 'I didn't have Elano"
 
I really don't know why you even picked that hole

It was a pretty big hole. He talked about a team full of United players after all. I won't look for weaknesses in arguments next time.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Arsenal, our Premier League leaders have stumbled upon the way to win. No English.

So Man U didn't win the title laast year with a team regularly featuring 4 or 5 Englishmen?

This crap might work if you didn't exaggerate wildly and asssume the rest of us have the memories of goldfish.
 
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