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Thread: Roiling football blather

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    Is that true? ..... I don't think it's as easy as all that to make money from footie is what I'm saying.
    That's what I was wondering. But then look at the money David Dein has just made from Arsenal

    http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/20...helped_ki.html

    And if the Newcastle example is anything to go by, you can make this cash from mid-table.


    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    Complete change of subject but does anyone else think that the reaction to England winning two games in a row against thoroughly mediocre sides has been way over the top?
    Totally agree. Second half was pretty shaky all round, and SWP is still not an international class winger.

  2. #17
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    "That's what I was wondering. But then look at the money David Dein has just made from Arsenal

    http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/20...helped_ki.html"
    Very interesting, thank you.

  3. #18
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    Thanks hucks, that article is very good indeed - so all this money comes from TV rights then? That's crazy cash for "just being there"! I wonder what the new owners will do to get as much return on investment as the previous owners (who bought cheap and benefited from the TV bonanza) did?

    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    there is a limit to how far you can take that and gates were down a lot last season I believe (except for at the top sides).
    05/06 vs 06/07 EPL
    Up= Man U, Arsenal, Villa, Fulham, Blackburn, Sheffield*, Reading*
    Same= West Ham, Charlton
    Down= the rest
    * promoted

    Attendance figures for the top 4 divisions in England (from footballeconomy.com)


    Is there a 'football bubble'?

    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    Complete change of subject but does anyone else think that the reaction to England winning two games in a row against thoroughly mediocre sides has been way over the top?
    On the one hand expectations are sky-high and on the other people are so starved of success they will feast on crumbs. Realistically though, as things stand, England are certainly not among the world's top 10 teams and would probably struggle to make even top 10 in Europe. Mind-boggling if you think about it, given the available resources.

    Some positive points:
    - England can win games without their talisman
    - The Barry-Gerrard connection in midfield (though Barry in a holding role is an O'Neill invention)
    - Owen's quality shining through yet again - England's only proven world-class striker. The best thing about having the 'big man up front' is drawing away defenders so Owen has space to work. The poacher may be a dying profession but it's still a noble one, and Owen's numbers speak for themselves

    I really hope you make it, Euro 2008 would be much poorer without you, and I'd love Scotland to be there too.

    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    What I don't get is all the papers praising McClaren's tactical nous for putting on a big guy for the knock down against teams that can't handle it - it's not as though he saw the defence and decided to do it, he does that every fucking game, it's inevitable that it would work eventually.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. (Einstein, attributed)


    PS Violence should not be tolerated, but seeing Big Phil Scolari lash out at Dragutinovic yesterday made me think a little about where England could be under a foreign coach with some fire in his belly.

  4. #19
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    "I wonder what the new owners will do to get as much return on investment as the previous owners (who bought cheap and benefited from the TV bonanza) did?"
    Good point. I don't know if they can.

    "Is there a 'football bubble'?"
    Possibly. I don't think that clubs have done themselves any favours with prices. If they lowered the admission I think that gates might rise again. Charlton have good deals for kids and cheaper tickets for less glamourous games I believe, that is another way forward and it's interesting that they outperformed almost everyone else in terms of keeping their fans in a season where they were relegated.
    "Realistically though, as things stand, England are certainly not among the world's top 10 teams and would probably struggle to make even top 10 in Europe. Mind-boggling if you think about it, given the available resources."
    Well, that's why everyone is so frustrated I guess.

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. (Einstein, attributed)"
    Well, I guess what I'm saying is that he keeps doing the same thing against different teams so one day he is going to play the team who is vulnerable to it. I would see it as genius if he varied his strike force to find the weakness of each team but that's not what he's been doing.
    Where are you from as a matter of interest Redcrescent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    Complete change of subject but does anyone else think that the reaction to England winning two games in a row against thoroughly mediocre sides has been way over the top?
    Fair enough they passed the ball better than they have for a while and they have had that little bit more purpose and cutting edge in the final third but the defence has looked very wobbly under absolutely minimal pressure and I'm not at all sure that was handball.
    Barry has been ok but hardly a revelation and SWP still hasn't managed a cross that stays on the pitch (although he does frighten people when he runs at them). What I don't get is all the papers praising McClaren's tactical nous for putting on a big guy for the knock down against teams that can't handle it - it's not as though he saw the defence and decided to do it, he does that every fucking game, it's inevitable that it would work eventually.
    I don't mean to be overly negative because there has been a definite improvement but I hate the way that all that the pundits are so short-sighted and change their opinion on everything on the basis of a couple of games. Israel (especially) and Russia haven't got any great players, look at the teamsheets and it seems clear that it should be a formality for England to batter them at home. Of course that's exactly what we haven't been doing recently but can only say that at the moment we're at a level that is the very minimum that is acceptable.

    The hoop-la comes from the expectations being so expeertly lowered during McLaren's previous year in charge. Israel were dreadful - hard to imagine them as the side that got so many good draws in recnet years. Russia are an OK team - neither great nor poor - but they had two 15 min spells (one between 1st and 2nd goals, the other at the star of the 2nd half) where they were clearly the better team.

    Tactical genius? Not sure how many people have actually said this (though if you want nuance, don't go to the BBC's old boys' act anymore), but I do think McLaren showed some courage to re-engage a national joke because he thought he'd team up well with Owen. The easy (Sven) option would've been Johnson or (god'elp us) Smith.

    I think Barry was ace, actually - barely a misplaced pass all match. Again, credit McLaren with sporting his resurgence under O'Neill rather than opting for big money Carrick or old warhorse P Neville, as I'm sure Sven would've done.

    Realistically though, as things stand, England are certainly not among the world's top 10 teams and would probably struggle to make even top 10 in Europe. Mind-boggling if you think about it, given the available resources.
    We'll see, but I disagree. Qf in the last three major tournaments and four consecutive 3-0 competitive wins says otherwise, even if none of them were against powerhouses.

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    Incidentally, how often did Sven pick a line-up for an important game featuring players from outside of the big four, with Spurs and Newcastle as back up?*

    I know many of the changes were forced on McLaren, but these two games featured starting roles for Villa, City & Wigan, plus two Everton subs.

    *Not a trick question - I don't know the answer.

  7. #22
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    Man I hate rugby....er, anyway
    "I do think McLaren showed some courage to re-engage a national joke because he thought he'd team up well with Owen. The easy (Sven) option would've been Johnson or (god'elp us) Smith."
    True. When Heskey was recalled I was certainly one of those who laughed.

    "Again, credit McLaren with sporting his resurgence under O'Neill rather than opting for big money Carrick or old warhorse P Neville, as I'm sure Sven would've done."
    I agree with you here as well. There has been a common problem of obedience or lack of imagination from the England managers of recent years in that they only seem to look at big money players or those at big clubs. McClaren and Sven have both been guilty of this but maybe this is the begining of a change. I hated it when Crouch suddenly getting called up as soon as he moved to Liverpool, had he magically become a better by moving house? At the same time as he was playing and not scoring Bent was banging in everything and being ignored, presumably because he was at a smaller club. For me, if you're scoring twenty goals for a team that gets relegated that ought to be a plus point. I could probably get a few if I played upfront for United (this hypothesis is admittedly unlikely to be put to the test) but getting loads of goals when the rest of the team is rubbish is a real achievement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    I don't think that clubs have done themselves any favours with prices. If they lowered the admission I think that gates might rise again.
    I think the German Bundesliga is a great example of how it should be done. Affordable tickets and rising attendance figures pretty much across the board. Man U might have more people at home games than top-ranked Borussia Dortmund, but a modest club like FC Nürnberg has a higher average attendance than Chelsea.

    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    Well, I guess what I'm saying is that he keeps doing the same thing against different teams so one day he is going to play the team who is vulnerable to it. I would see it as genius if he varied his strike force to find the weakness of each team but that's not what he's been doing.
    I get you, but it's not like other coaches don't watch England games and have McClaren's tactics booklet all figured out within minutes. If your repertoire is limited to 'long ball to the big man' (which only works if you have someone with Owen's finishing skills to capitalize on a loose ball) and 4-5-1 or 4-4-2, I'm afraid it won't get you very far - a team with a halfway disciplined defense will murder you on the break. I really think the holding midfielder option should be explored in depth because England certainly has the men for it and the shaky defense (though it makes for amusing watching, it must be said) would be strengthened. Players like Hargreaves and (let's wait and see) Barry can be trusted to make a good first pass back down the field.

    To be fair to McC, some key men have been out injured at crucial moments, but a great team is characterized by the interchangeabilty of its parts without compromise of its structure.

    And when, when I wonder will England find a quality keeper?

    (Meanwhile, the England women's team draw world champions Germany 0:0 and are well en route to the World Cup final)

    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    Where are you from as a matter of interest Redcrescent?
    My dad is Austrian, my mum is Spanish and I live in football-mad Mexico. You?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    There has been a common problem of obedience or lack of imagination from the England managers of recent years in that they only seem to look at big money players or those at big clubs. McClaren and Sven have both been guilty of this but maybe this is the begining of a change. I hated it when Crouch suddenly getting called up as soon as he moved to Liverpool, had he magically become a better by moving house? At the same time as he was playing and not scoring Bent was banging in everything and being ignored, presumably because he was at a smaller club. For me, if you're scoring twenty goals for a team that gets relegated that ought to be a plus point. I could probably get a few if I played upfront for United (this hypothesis is admittedly unlikely to be put to the test) but getting loads of goals when the rest of the team is rubbish is a real achievement.
    So OTM. Why is this really - coaches caving in to pressure from the tabloids?

    For a look at how it could (and should IMHO) be done, check Dunga's selections for the Brazil squad lately, including the one that thrashed a star-studded Argentina side at the Copa America final 3:0.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redcrescent View Post
    So OTM. Why is this really - coaches caving in to pressure from the tabloids?

    For a look at how it could (and should IMHO) be done, check Dunga's selections for the Brazil squad lately, including the one that thrashed a star-studded Argentina side at the Copa America final 3:0.
    There are legit concerns that the Champions League is where it's at, and that you need testing against the best at club level and you won't get that playing for Man City (much as I love him, I'd be nervous about an England team feat Micah Richards against the likes of Kaka or Riquelme just now). But it's also partly a product of celeb culture, to some extent, and perhaps managerial cowardice - you don't look so stupid if your flop striker was deemed worthy of £10m by one of the best mangers in the country.

    Problem with all these 'top' Champions League players is they bring that cautious culture with them. England played these games with a fair measure of freedom. On top of that, when you have to be a Top Four player to be in the England team, it breeds the complacent comfort zone attitude that has been so endemic, esp under Sven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerjack View Post
    There are legit concerns that the Champions League is where it's at, and that you need testing against the best at club level and you won't get that playing for Man City (much as I love him, I'd be nervous about an England team feat Micah Richards against the likes of Kaka or Riquelme just now). But it's also partly a product of celeb culture, to some extent, and perhaps managerial cowardice - you don't look so stupid if your flop striker was deemed worthy of £10m by one of the best mangers in the country.

    Problem with all these 'top' Champions League players is they bring that cautious culture with them. England played these games with a fair measure of freedom. On top of that, when you have to be a Top Four player to be in the England team, it breeds the complacent comfort zone attitude that has been so endemic, esp under Sven.
    Some good points here. I realize that the Champions League is tremendously lucrative, a great stage and certainly a priority for many (Rafa Benítez, step forward) but are there enough English players getting regular Champions League action to make up a national squad? Somewhere along the line you must be reasonable and choose players on form, and, as IdleRich says, leaving out someone like Darren Bent who does not have the quality of service other strikers have and still performs is criminal negligence.

    I mean, if your job is to nominate an England squad on the basis of names only, any 8 year old can do that in a flash. And if the pressure on an England coach to get things right is strong, imagine what the Brazil coach must feel each time he announces the team sheet. And here's Dunga picking young players that ply their trade in the Russian and Ukranian leagues, simply because he feels thay are going to do the best job. Sure, CSKA Moscow and Shakhtar Donetsk might play in the Champions League qualifying stages some years, but most of their league matches are not even Championship level.
    I think that if a coach has a consistent policy of naming only the hungriest and most in-form players, regardless of names, hierarchy, history and the media, his success will speak for itself and he will be vindicated.

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    I'm surprised that my club, Spurs, haven't been mentioned in all of this. It seems to me that the main motivation for the board to behave as shabbily as they have to Jol is that they want the club to be top 4 and thus make them much more attractive in the market come the summer, by that time they will ahve secured planning permission to turn the ground by 90 degrees and expand.

    Quite why they then let Jol spend £40+million and then not give him a chance to perform, i dunno.

    As to England - both opponents were a bit poor but plastic pitch and all that may well make a difference in Russia. I think Barry was the real pick over the two games - the crowd in the pub shouted 'You're so shit, we can bring Neville on'. Still cannot see what Joe Cole really brings to the mix - step overs that never actually convince, profligate in the pass and only redeemed by a flash goal every now and then. Owen looks good but was unmarked for both goals on Wednesday.

    The thing is though is that in the past we would ahve choked but at least we held it together and got the results - McLaren still looks like the coach driver rather than the coach and i ahve no faith in him bringing the best out of players like Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard. SWP needs to go away and remember how to cross the ball and we need to hope Lennon comes back fit and fast to give us genuine width.

    BTW - shouldn't this be two different threads?

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    "I get you, but it's not like other coaches don't watch England games and have McClaren's tactics booklet all figured out within minutes. If your repertoire is limited to 'long ball to the big man' (which only works if you have someone with Owen's finishing skills to capitalize on a loose ball) and 4-5-1 or 4-4-2, I'm afraid it won't get you very far - a team with a halfway disciplined defense will murder you on the break."
    Yeah agreed, the long ball to the big man is ok as a plan b or preferably even plan c but it shouldn't be the tactic that a team with England's players defaults to.

    "My dad is Austrian, my mum is Spanish and I live in football-mad Mexico. You?"
    Well, I'm English obviously. I'm not a big supporter of clubs as such but as far as it goes my allegiance is to Manchester United. To be honest I prefer playing to watching.

    "So OTM. Why is this really - coaches caving in to pressure from the tabloids?"
    Not sure it's that, I think it's just a complete lack of imagination.

    "There are legit concerns that the Champions League is where it's at, and that you need testing against the best at club level and you won't get that playing for Man City (much as I love him, I'd be nervous about an England team feat Micah Richards against the likes of Kaka or Riquelme just now). But it's also partly a product of celeb culture, to some extent, and perhaps managerial cowardice - you don't look so stupid if your flop striker was deemed worthy of £10m by one of the best mangers in the country."
    I think you have to take everything in to consideration including the quality of the opposition but I think it goes way too far to say that you can't play for England if you're not in the Champions' League. You can't be so inflexible. When Greece won the European Cup they had less players in the champions' league than any of the other sides and you might argue that they were the freshest side in the tournament. Another non-champions' league player who did well was Rooney who was with Everton at that point.

    "I'm surprised that my club, Spurs, haven't been mentioned in all of this. It seems to me that the main motivation for the board to behave as shabbily as they have to Jol is that they want the club to be top 4 and thus make them much more attractive in the market come the summer, by that time they will ahve secured planning permission to turn the ground by 90 degrees and expand.
    Quite why they then let Jol spend £40+million and then not give him a chance to perform, i dunno"
    It's blown up right in their faces really. They've been completely exposed and left him as a dead man walking. I always think it's ridiculous to fire someone that early in the season anyway but the way they tried to go about it was particularly stupid.

    "BTW - shouldn't this be two different threads?"
    Yeah, sorry about that.

  14. #29
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    Any new nuggets of wisdom after the weekend games?

    New speculation on the possible replacement of Martin Jol by Juande Ramos in the Guardian today, I just cannot see this happening to be honest. Can the Spurs board really be so dumb, and would Ramos leave a Sevilla side equipped to challenge for (and win) serious silverware again this year?

    Re. different threads - "the best bits on Dissensus are derailed threads" and all that, but it'd be helpful. Anyone up for making an EPL thread and a separate one on football politics etc.?

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    Well I didn't see that coming.

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