Ect

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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
sufi said:
thanks, one of his main problems in terms of mental health treatment in my opinion is the colour of his skin; as a black man he has been victim of too many years of discrimination, neglect and brutality due to the horrendous institutional racism in the NHS :(
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I can well believe it, unfortunately. This was one of the few useful and incontrovertible things that seemed to come out of that MIND survey; the propensity of doctors to put non-white patients forward for ECT, when it often wasn't justified. Out of interest, have most of the doctors/consultants he's had to deal with been white themselves?
 
sufi

sufi

lala
yeah, the ones i've met anyway, although the nursing staff (aka the muscle) are usually black :slanted::(
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
sufi said:
yeah, the ones i've met anyway, although the nursing staff (aka the muscle) are usually black :slanted::(
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Hmm. My Dad's consultant was (I think) Indian, and two of the nurses on the team (though emphatically not the muscle in this case) were black.... I guess I was just surprised in a way because the area (Kent) is so white. Well, compared to London anyways...

I'm drawing absolutley no conclusions from this, but I guess at least it shows that there are non-white consultants out there who will be sensitive (presumably) to issues of insittutional racism, and not only in London.
 
sufi

sufi

lala
yeah obviously (i hope) no disrespect to the low paid black staff (although some of them are terrible, so are a fair few white doctors) - there is clearly a glass ceiling in the NHS & discrimination probably applies equally to staff, there was a revealing set of stats on how GMC seems to systematically discriminate against Drs from minorities :mad:
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
No doubt there is a glass ceiling and discrimination against staff.

I never really understood how many doctors were recruited to the NHS from overseas int he past ten years or so - at one point that issue was a regular fixture in the papers. Obviously it's impossible to tell without asking, but the black nurses had African accents, and the doctor an Indian accent, and all were reasonably young. So I kinda assumed that they'd come to the NHS from health systems abroad, rather than having been promoted up the 'ladder' as members of a minority in Britain.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
At what stage (in a doctor's career) does this discrimination start to happen, then? At my university there seems to be a huge number of South Asians doing medical degrees, but I think most of them were actually British.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Mr. Tea said:
At what stage (in a doctor's career) does this discrimination start to happen, then? At my university there seems to be a huge number of South Asians doing medical degrees, but I think most of them were actually British.
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Yeah, it does seem more difficult to explain when you put it like that. Perhaps it is 'acceptable' for south Asians to be seen as doctors, but not for other minorities?
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
That kind of shit, and the immovbale bureaucracy which ensures that it's seven years before reports such as that are questioned, is really depressing :(
 
T

tht

akstavrh
two things of concern, even though i don't normally respond to internet posts from people whose situations are essentially unknown to me and i'm not a doctor, firstly - 'a friend who knows a senior mental health nurse' is not really sufficient as counsel, and secondly that the doctors you describe are young, are they consultants?
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
tht said:
two things of concern, even though i don't normally respond to internet posts from people whose situations are essentially unknown to me and i'm not a doctor, firstly - 'a friend who knows a senior mental health nurse' is not really sufficient as counsel, and secondly that the doctors you describe are young, are they consultants?
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The doctor I was describing was a consultant, yes; a second opinion was sought from another consultant too.
As regards counsel, I think you're right insofar as good counsel is really difficult to find. However, I trust the friend in question (who herself has lots of indirect experience in the area of mentla health), and, as regards the senior nurse she is friends with, I can't see who else I would be able to trust more than someone who sees the results of ECT every day in their job. It is confusing and scary, but I've got to lay a modicum of trust somewhere.
 
T

tht

akstavrh
sure, a senior nurse should be useful to talk, just that you have spoken to them only through an intermediary and they are a friend of a friend - there is partiality

it's got to be difficult to find third party advice though, maybe it's worth a look for forums for sufferers of whatever condition is being treated, there are probably lots of first person accounts

i hope things work out for your family
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
sufi said:
thanks, one of his main problems in terms of mental health treatment in my opinion is the colour of his skin; as a black man he has been victim of too many years of discrimination, neglect and brutality due to the horrendous institutional racism in the NHS :(
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oh don't man, it's just terrifying the statistics for young black men being diagnosed with schizophrenia.
 
T

tht

akstavrh
suggests that the nhs psychushka system is an adjunct to the wider prison complex, the difference in incarceration rates between ethinic groups being quite similar
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
tht said:
suggests that the nhs psychushka system is an adjunct to the wider prison complex, the difference in incarceration rates between ethinic groups being quite similar
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'Never been a cure yet'. Dorothy Parker.

We read alot about language and race when we were younger, and I just came out of thinking that linguistics (as well as economics) just have to be taught from the age of five really for any of this to change at all. I've got friends who are heavily involved in the psyche profession and it just shocked me what they were taught.

I gonna step out here - think this one of the few threads I'm not gonna derail lol - cos it feels like quite a personal thread and I don't want to appear to be taking it lightly, or to say anything that might cause upset.
 
H

hundredmillionlifetimes

Banned
‘Well, strictly speaking, the procedure is a form of brain damage.’
............ Doctor, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind


baboon2004 said:
The doctor I was describing was a consultant, yes; a second opinion was sought from another consultant too.
As regards counsel, I think you're right insofar as good counsel is really difficult to find. However, I trust the friend in question (who herself has lots of indirect experience in the area of mentla health), and, as regards the senior nurse she is friends with, I can't see who else I would be able to trust more than someone who sees the results of ECT every day in their job. It is confusing and scary, but I've got to lay a modicum of trust somewhere.
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Opinions of the kind you allude to above are extremely dangerous. It is utterly frightening to believe that ECT is still being actively practiced in supposedly civilized societies in 2007.

Who are these people? People who are passively and ignorantly colluding in institutionalised torture. There is a vast research literature on the adverse and chronic effects, including irreversible brain damage, of ECT, a brutal mechanism of social control.

"Trust me, I'm a Doctor!" Hideous.

On the other hand, for certain extreme afflictions, including Parkinson's Disease, Tourette Syndrome, Chronic Epilepsy, and Catatonic Depression, the surgical procedure of Deep Brain Stimulation shows promise, but again, it merely relieves symptoms, and the neuropsychiatric side-effects can be equally disturbing (relapse including apathy, hallucinations, compulsive gambling, cognitive dysfunction, and depression).


[And on another - wider - note, The Shock Doctrine by Alfonso Cuarón and Naomi Klein]
 
N

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
It does sound outrageous and horrific, and there may be better treatments available in the future, but I think there are certain cases, as tht mentions, where it is genuinely considered to be the best course of action. I think it's equally dangerous, not to mention disingenuous and in this case rather insensitive, to suggest that just because someone is involved in the admittedly imperfect mental health system that they are colluding in institutionalised torture.

Best of luck with it baboon, perhaps just keep an eye on them and make sure they don't get too carried away. I'm sure the intentions are good even if the methods are less than ideal.
 
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hundredmillionlifetimes

Banned
Noel, it doesn't 'sound' outrageous, unless of course you believe torture of this kind to be merely fictional.

What 'certain cases' are you referring to here? You either approve and rationalize irreversible torture or you condemn it ...

It is clearly disingenuous to suggest that those "involved in the admittedly imperfect mental health system," who know full well that ECT is barbarically destructive, are doing anything other than colluding in institutionalised torture.

"I'm sure the intentions are good even if the methods are less than ideal."

As the supporters of torture said about Abu Ghraib (and the invasion of Iraq).
 
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