Privacy

Z

zhao

there are no accidents
i realize that i'm kinda out of the ordinary with my maybe extreme openness: i use my real name on this board and other internet places, and would reveal to pretty much any stranger (that i have a good feeling about) just about anything about myself, from my political views to my personal history, psychological background, and private life.

this may or may not stem from a fundamental (fatal?) belief in the benign nature of people in general.

being this way has caused trouble before, in the work place among other situations, and i have learnt to be more discreet; but i am still basically the person that i am - an open book.

my thoughts on this are as follows:

i have nothing to hide what so ever. while not proud of my mistakes, am not ashamed of them either. and while i do admit to wanting to be liked and accepted, i don't really give a shit what anyone knows or thinks about me. because, this sounds corny but it's true, real friends will like me for who i am anyway, not a fabricated image i construct by editing out things i don't want people to know about.

and one thing i do believe in is sharing, and communicating, and connecting with people. i think this makes everyone's lives richer and more meaningful.

after all, we all live for about 70-80 years on average, and then we die. all we have are these fleeting moments, during which we can be stingy, curmudgeon-y, stiff and isolated, or we can have some fun, share experiences with each other, and maybe even reach for some higher level of understanding.

i meet people who seem to be very much closed all the time, the sort of people who turn their noses up at everything and everyone at parties. people who show no love, no enthusiasm, no passion, no warmth. people who do not want to share or try to make the passage of time more interesting. and the only thing i can think of as cause of this kind of behavior is fear.

i mean i understand that a certain level of privacy is healthy and necessary, and is good just to keep bullshit and drama away (as previously mentioned) but beyond that what is the big deal with being all private and secretive? is it a virtue in some people's eyes? why?
 
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L

Lichen

Well-known member
i meet people who seem to be very much closed all the time, the sort of people who turn their noses up at everything and everyone at parties. people who show no love, no enthusiasm, no passion, no warmth.


I have some friends - one in particular - who are in many ways totally different to me: different priorities, politics, world-view, way of life etc. But in a social situation their attitude is "I'll talk to anyone". I have serious respect for their ability to do just that and enjoy it.

I supose some closed, sercetive sorts are probably shy and insecure, but equally, i suspect there are many for whom it's an arrogant position founded on the asssumption that their lives somehow merit secrecy; deserve to be kept apart.
 
swears

swears

preppy-kei
Why is it necessarily a good thing to have to constantly explain and engraciate yourself to people? It's always better to assume that people aren't interested in being your new best chum, unless you know otherwise. And there's definitely something cool about a bit of mystery and aloofness.
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
swears said:
Why is it necessarily a good thing to have to constantly explain and engraciate yourself to people?
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haha is that what you gathered from what i wrote? do you think i'm bigging up obnoxious coke-heads with verbal diarrhea who forces themselves onto people? do you think I'm saying it's good to endlessly talk about one self?

no. I am not. I am saying that i personally prefer people who are warm and open. people who are lovely, giving, and generous in conversation as well as in life. people who show love and appreciation and graciousness.

and i would like to be this kind of person as much as possible.

And there's definitely something cool about a bit of mystery and aloofness.
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i agree with you. at least about the mystery part. i don't think the kind of persons i like is mutually exclusive with this.
 
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Gavin

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
It's funny, when I saw a thread titled "Privacy" I didn't think it was going to go in this direction, of social self-disclosure.

I don't think this kind of introversion is unrelated to privacy as a civil liberties issue: in a world of spy-bots, phone-tapping, snitching, the climate of fear Zhao's talking about is amped up.

I don't know, I, perhaps shamefully, find it hard to discuss political beliefs with others most of the time: most Americans don't really care about politics, just teevee talking points, so to challenge things on a more fundamental level... well, I think most people are unprepared for that kind of discussion, feel stupid, get defensive. Actually teaching is making me better about this, since I don't want to proselytize (because it's ineffective at changing minds or getting anyone to think critically), I've found more subtle ways to prod thinking in new directions (hopefully).

Zhao, I don't know who these curmudgeonly people are that you have in mind; surely very few people consider themselves in that way and strive for openness and warmth, sharing experiences, all that stuff... Is this a useful distinction to draw?

And doesn't friendship rely on some form of fabricated image? Is it possible to engage with a person "in itself" without some recourse to a simplified construct? How do you do it? And doesn't self-disclosure do as much to build up this image as self-withholding?
 
M

mms

sometimes
zhao said:
haha is that what you gathered from what i wrote? do you think i'm bigging up obnoxious coke-heads with verbal diarrhea who forces themselves onto people? do you think I'm saying it's good to endlessly talk about one self?

no. I am not. I am saying that i personally prefer people who are warm and open. people who are lovely, giving, and generous in conversation as well as in life. people who show love and appreciation and graciousness.
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i think gentle honesty is a good thing, there are so many people in london who play that game of tactical arselicking, flattering people who might get them somewhere even though they're horribly cynically lying thru their teeth.
It compounds a horrible almost fascistic false positivity, if you're not incredibly positive and back slapping about everything with no criticism, you're negative, dangerous and disruptive, this is one of the most horrible things in the world, nothing can improve and everything goes in one direction, you see it alot nowdays, and it's disgusting.
Its a thin line, but clearly you understand it Zhao, i wish other people did more.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Our housemate, who's been here since the summer, let slip that she has a pierced clitoris when she came round to look at the place and met us for the first time. She has, thank god, turned out not to be one of those people who mercilessly regails you with gory details of their sex life whether you want to hear about it or not; it's just that she's a few years younger than the rest of us and I think she was a bit shy at the time and possibly over-compensated on the 'relaxed' side of things. ;)
 
swears

swears

preppy-kei
zhao said:
haha is that what you gathered from what i wrote? do you think i'm bigging up obnoxious coke-heads with verbal diarrhea who forces themselves onto people? do you think I'm saying it's good to endlessly talk about one self?
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OK, perhaps I was playing devil's advocate a bit there...but it's easy to accuse people of being arrogant and self-centered simply because they prefer to keep themselves to themselves. For me, a lot of the time I assume people aren't that interested in what I have to say. I think I probably even post here way too often.

zhao said:
no. I am not. I am saying that i personally prefer people who are warm and open. people who are lovely, giving, and generous in conversation as well as in life. people who show love and appreciation and graciousness.
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This all sounds a bit vague, define "love".
 
E

Edward

+
mixed response

There are all sorts of reasons for not being so open... I look at this website a lot but almost never post because: why would anyone care what I think?

I often remain silent in real life because my opinion differs from that of others and they don't want to have a discussion, they just want to cosily agree with each other.

It's easy to be open about your feelings if you are happy but what if what you want to express is something like "I am unhappy" or "I am lonely" - you will quickly run out of friends who want to listen. Swears has previously been open about his trouble meeting ladies and was quickly rounded on and told to stop being so self-indulgent.

So sometimes it's better not to be too open.

And it's very unappealing when someone tells you everything about themselves as if they think they must be absolutely fascinating to everyone else.

But it's great to be open to being open, be friendly, of course.
Just today I saw my next door neighbour and said "hiya" as I always do, and he stared at me in the face like I was completely insane and then walked away.
I will persevere with him anyway.
 
swears

swears

preppy-kei
Edward said:
Swears has previously been open about his trouble meeting ladies and was quickly rounded on and told to stop being so self-indulgent.
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It was sort of fair enough though, I did come across like some drippy teenager, I'd just been dumped like a ton of bricks, and it was the only thing on my mind at the time. I probably needed a kick up the arse, lol.
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
zhao said:
what is the big deal with being all private and secretive? is it a virtue in some people's eyes? why?
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Certainly amongst men I think secrecy is seen as a virtue yes. Secrecy is spread like a virus similar to control, of which secrecy is a subset. What I fear most isn't disclosure, but of being invaded by the machinations of silence, secrecy, control and paranoia which are really destructive, and depressing, but ultimately it's much easier I think for people to keep things in than to bring them to light, which has been almost impossible in alot of men I've met.

Blokes are meant to be rocks - you're taught to be on your guard all your life in case you get hurt; it's a vicious circle, secrecy hurts the people around those being secretive, thus teaching people who are hurt by secrecy to be more secretive themselves. I'd like to think I'm open and I'll certainly talk to anyone, but years of damage by secrecy - and sometimes the need for it - definitely takes it's toll on openness. Funnily enough though, my work has become much more confessional the more I've closed up. Often though it's hard for anyone to even say anything, let alone not be private.
 
E

Edward

+
My mother laughed at my brother for telling his 3 year old son that he loves him.

I am almost pathalogically unable to talk about anything except music.

I think I will post this before i delete it sorta thing.
 
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M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
Edward said:
My mother laughed at my brother for telling his 3 year old son that he loves him.
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Yeah it kinda comes from that sort of thing, I was brought up in a house where touching was totally anathema, sometimes the boundaries are imposed really early on.

I kinda also hate the 'culture of disclosure' that therapy et al have brought, I'm a total mess around all this actually lol.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
mistersloane said:
Certainly amongst men I think secrecy is seen as a virtue yes. Secrecy is spread like a virus similar to control, of which secrecy is a subset. What I fear most isn't disclosure, but of being invaded by the machinations of silence, secrecy, control and paranoia which are really destructive, and depressing, but ultimately it's much easier I think for people to keep things in than to bring them to light, which has been almost impossible in alot of men I've met.

Blokes are meant to be rocks - you're taught to be on your guard all your life in case you get hurt; it's a vicious circle, secrecy hurts the people around those being secretive, thus teaching people who are hurt by secrecy to be more secretive themselves. I'd like to think I'm open and I'll certainly talk to anyone, but years of damage by secrecy - and sometimes the need for it - definitely takes it's toll on openness. Funnily enough though, my work has become much more confessional the more I've closed up. Often though it's hard for anyone to even say anything, let alone not be private.
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But at the same time, aren't there some things you would tell a few good friends or perhaps just one person, that you wouldn't be happy with other people knowing? And if the one person you'd confided in went and told everyone, you'd be pretty pissed off? I think the ability to keep a secret - not in a schoolgirls-bitching-about-eachother sense of the word 'secret', but in the sense of sensitive information you'd only impart to someone you trust intimately - is a pretty admirable quality.
 
E

Edward

+
But at the same time, aren't there some things you would tell a few good friends or perhaps just one person, that you wouldn't be happy with other people knowing? And if the one person you'd confided in went and told everyone, you'd be pretty pissed off? I think the ability to keep a secret - not in a schoolgirls-bitching-about-eachother sense of the word 'secret', but in the sense of sensitive information you'd only impart to someone you trust intimately - is a pretty admirable quality.
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I realised a long time ago that when you tell somebody something, the fact you are telling kind of says "this is not THAT secret" so they often think it's ok to tell. on that basis, I would never tell anyone something that I didn't want to go further. a secret shared is not a secret.
of course it's not good to have secrets and i don't have a lot.....
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well there's someone I know who's told me stuff, and I can entirely understand a) why they'd want me to know about it, and b) why they wouldn't want other people to know, and so I'd have to be an utter prick to then tell other people on the basis that 'secrets are bad', or something like that. There's being open and honest, and then there's being an insensitive blabbermouth. Not the same thing.
 
E

Edward

+
I agree, but there is nobody I would trust to not tell if it was really important to me that people didn't find out.

When I say it's not good to have secrets, I don't mean "hey secrets are bad man, let it all hang out," I just mean it's obviously not nice to have something on your mind that you are too embarrassed or ashamed to let others know about.

If one's secrets are not that bad then I can't imagine why one would feel the need to keep them secret.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Edward said:
When I say it's not good to have secrets, I don't mean "hey secrets are bad man, let it all hang out," I just mean it's obviously not nice to have something on your mind that you are too embarrassed or ashamed to let others know about.
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Hmm, well there are others and there are others, you know what I'm saying? You may be comfortable with person A knowing something but not with person B knowing it, and therefore it's in your interest if A doesn't tell B.

Edward said:
If one's secrets are not that bad then I can't imagine why one would feel the need to keep them secret.
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You might know something that you want to keep secret from someone for their benefit, rather than yours.
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
Mr. Tea said:
But at the same time, aren't there some things you would tell a few good friends or perhaps just one person, that you wouldn't be happy with other people knowing? And if the one person you'd confided in went and told everyone, you'd be pretty pissed off? I think the ability to keep a secret - not in a schoolgirls-bitching-about-eachother sense of the word 'secret', but in the sense of sensitive information you'd only impart to someone you trust intimately - is a pretty admirable quality.
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That's kinda confidentiality, as opposed to secrecy I think which I think I'd see as something slightly different, although I'll have to think about why for a bit
 
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