Absolutely OTM.
HTML banned?!?!
- Thread starter zhao
- Start date
Absolutely OTM.
Gavin
booty bass intellectual
Agreed. Did wish he'd explain his ideas more thoroughly instead of going for the throats of individual posters (thought that debate on PC language policing could have gone somewhere), but hey, he's got his style and I've got mine. Can't offended parties put him on ignore instead of an outright ban?
Which was why it was ridiculous to kill that thread altogether.
Guybrush
Dittohead
OTM. And can we please have an open vote the next time someone faces a possible ban? I bet half of the time, people aren’t nearly as thin-skinned as some mods seem to believe.
This gets onto something I was meaning to discuss here actually, as regards insults/offence vs other stuff. Part of the result of "Political Correctness", the originary movement and the response to it and then the gross confusion as to what it all actually meant has been to imagine that its not the actual oppression of say, racism, which is the problem, but rather its the fact that being racist causes offence. So in the misunderstanding, (deliberate of course on the part of those who are ACTUALLY racist and sexist and homophobic and want to continue to be so) the original idea of taking on the power dynamic inherent in words and phrases collapses into mere offence.
To render this concrete: Why is HMLT causing "offence" to certain posters any worse than Vimothy's read-between-the-lines racism etc?
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
The thing is, he had some interesting things to say so on that front I was glad he was here, but for the most part I'd duck out of a thread once he showed up in it because I didn't want to have to deal with the shitstorm that would emerge if I actually disagreed with anything he said.
vimothy
yurp
Or Zhao's read between the lines fascism, or, indeed, your own read between the lines fascism... It's a tough question.
Gavin
booty bass intellectual
Yah, I read HMLT's insults as putting this critique into practice (you called it "Irish charm" once?).
IdleRich
IdleRich
Fair point, and like I said, I don't want him or anybody banned. I'm just absolutely gobsmacked by Zhao's refusal to see what's right in front of his nose and clearly visible to everyone else. I'm not saying that's a reason to ban HMLT I just think it's a bit weird to pretend it's not there.
More to say about this tomorrow (got to rush now) but broadly you want robust debate but not to the level where it slips into childish insults and simply cannot get anywhere. I know I was guilty of that the other day and I plan to try and avoid it from now on (until the next time obviously) but basically no-one learns anything if they are just in position ready and waiting to slate their ideological enemies as soon as their head comes above the parapet without even checking their position on the issue in hand.
But that was when he insulted me and is a good case in point. I had pointed out that he had got something the wrong way round (which he had), he then called me a racist (although the issue was nothing to do with race) and went on every other thread that I had commented on recently and called me a wanker. Not very helpful I reckon.
Time to go and look up the word "fascism". Contra to the selection of rightwing nutsacks you voraciously consume Vim it does not simply= "someone with whom I strongly disagree."
Here is Wikipedia's attempt:
"Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and social interests subordinate to the interests of the state or party. Fascists seek to forge a type of national unity, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, racial, religious attributes. The key attribute is intolerance of others: other religions, languages, political views, economic systems, cultural practices, etc. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, and opposition to political and economic liberalism."
Hence merely being anti-economic liberalism =/ fascist. A pro-eschatological outlook is not reducible to Fascism.
Gavin
booty bass intellectual
It's also interesting how PC language policing has caused this "return of the repressed" in the form of "ironic" sexist/racist jokes -- "Carlos Mencia," assorted shock-jockery... Because humor is about transgressing norms/critiquing "from below," now bigots can play like they're the ones being oppressed -- "waah, give Imus his show back!"
john eden
male pale and stale
Perhaps the thread could have been split, but this is quite time consuming - certainly it's not something I have time to do at present. (It's also worth bearing in mind that a lot of this happened over the xmas break when not many moderators were about).
A discussion on PC anti-PC language would be welcome if it is able to avoid degenerating into shrill hysteria.
It isn't an outright ban, it's temporary. Two months.
If there is a next time and I am involved it will be three months...
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mistersloane
heavy heavy monster sound
For listeners newer than me there's a whole history around this, cue here
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=3893&highlight=padraig
I came to Dissensus just as this was happening and just thought it was the fabbest discussion ever, I was like "I found a PUB! On the internet!!"
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=3893&highlight=padraig
I came to Dissensus just as this was happening and just thought it was the fabbest discussion ever, I was like "I found a PUB! On the internet!!"
noel emits
a wonderful wooden reason
Let's take it all the way back....
Hundreds himself linked to this not so long ago. I wonder if people can detect the irony and parallels here in Mark's discussion of how to be a 'good spinozist'.
http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/003875.html
"All of which brings us to this in every sense genuinely sad spectacle. On the side of the BwO, everything is positive, so what use can be made of this animal-in-a-trap howl of outraged subjectivism? Well, at the moment, ______ is functioning as a morbidly compelling example of how not to be a good Spinozist. Spinoza's rigorous analysis of sorrow shows how the sad are typically not engaging directly and sensitively with the world but with their own frozen images (think of these as being like outdated data caches). Consider, if you can bear it, the way in which ______ tilts at the windmills of his own phantasms in a flailing, pathetically resentful hunger for attention that is exemplary of how to produce sad encounters. It is a display of that Romantic fetishization of self-destruction that, far from being subversive or transgressive, is the Human OS in person. (nb it is crucial to distinguish the intricate art of self-disassembly from the gruesome thanatropic processes of self-destruction). "
The real action is in the comments box. I think it might also be one of the greatest things that has ever happened on the internet.
Hundreds himself linked to this not so long ago. I wonder if people can detect the irony and parallels here in Mark's discussion of how to be a 'good spinozist'.
http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/003875.html
"All of which brings us to this in every sense genuinely sad spectacle. On the side of the BwO, everything is positive, so what use can be made of this animal-in-a-trap howl of outraged subjectivism? Well, at the moment, ______ is functioning as a morbidly compelling example of how not to be a good Spinozist. Spinoza's rigorous analysis of sorrow shows how the sad are typically not engaging directly and sensitively with the world but with their own frozen images (think of these as being like outdated data caches). Consider, if you can bear it, the way in which ______ tilts at the windmills of his own phantasms in a flailing, pathetically resentful hunger for attention that is exemplary of how to produce sad encounters. It is a display of that Romantic fetishization of self-destruction that, far from being subversive or transgressive, is the Human OS in person. (nb it is crucial to distinguish the intricate art of self-disassembly from the gruesome thanatropic processes of self-destruction). "
The real action is in the comments box. I think it might also be one of the greatest things that has ever happened on the internet.
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noel emits
a wonderful wooden reason
It might be seen as provocative or unproductive posting that but I do think it's really interesting and illuminating. Don't mean to offend anyone or dredge up old conflicts.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Bgaaaarggghhhh, but that's EXACTLY how HMLT uses it! The thing about Him is that He is so fanatically convinced of His own unassaible, Messianic righteousness that any attempt to disagree with Him is met with accusations of 'racism' (whether race/ism is even a topic under discussion, as IdleRich points out), 'fascism' - which He repeats to the point of meaninglessness, as if He were a five-year-old calling someone a poo-poo-head - or, better still, 'pathalogical'; as if to declare that disagreement with Him makes the disagree-er insane by definition.
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