Worst Mistake Never Made

Z

zhao

there are no accidents
noel emits said:
Apparently not in OZ.
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by universal i mean english speaking countries... what do they speak in OZ?

you thought it was a random tangent but might not be a bad parallel actually...

as the wizard turned out to be a fraud so might this thing we know called "civilization". it's all smoke and mirrors in the end and we don't need, never needed, any of it.
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
zhao said:
by universal i mean english speaking countries... what do they speak in OZ?

you thought it was a random tangent but might not be a bad parallel actually...

as the wizard turned out to be a fraud so might this thing we know called "civilization". it's all smoke and mirrors in the end and we don't need, never needed, any of it.
Click to expand...

The term acousmetre, pointed out by Jerome Peignot to composer Pierre Schaeffer in the 1950s, originally referred to a Pythagorean sect who were taught from their master from behind a curtain, so that the sight of the speaker wouldn't distract them from the message*

*interestingly in The Wizard Of Oz, the Scarecrow cites Pythagoras's theorem of triangles when he gains his brain, but gets the theorem wrong.
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
"by universal i mean english speaking countries... what do they speak in OZ?"
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I think he means Australia here, a (kind of) English speaking country which exported countless soaps to the UK in the eighties leading to endless hilarity as handsome sheep shearers were routinely described as spunks.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
zhao said:
as the wizard turned out to be a fraud so might this thing we know called "civilization". it's all smoke and mirrors in the end and we don't need, never needed, any of it.
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Could I ask you a question, Zhao: I know that you believe that life was much better in pre-agrarian societies than it is in our society, but what I want to know is why you think that this is so, i.e. what is the mechanism that allows for a much higher standard of living?
 
N

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Quality of life is about 'quality of experience', that means being happy, fulfilled etc. As it's about 'experience' it is much more a 'spiritual' function than a 'material' one. so although it is important to have the basics of food and shelter there really are way more important things that contribute to what life is. Those also happen to be the very things that are hugely devalued, disregarded and placed out of reach in our so-called civilisation. And more so all the time. I believe that this is not how it is supposed to be and it is certainly not progress. I think it's like some kind of battered spouse syndrome to accept that this way of living is normal for human beings.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
Ok noel, but given the unquantifiable nature of something so vague as spiritual well-being, could we just focus on physical standard of living (mean income, mean calorie consumption, mean working day, etc) first?
 
N

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Of course you can talk about those things if you wish, I might even join in. But I think it misses the point, certainly the point I was making.

I don't think spiritual well being is unquantifiable at all. How do you feel?
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
noel emits said:
Of course you can talk about those things if you wish, I might even join in. But I think it misses the point, certainly the point I was making.

I don't think spiritual well being is unquantifiable at all. How do you feel?
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Better than you? Worse than you? 3.5 times the median in developing world countries?
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
vimothy said:
Ok noel, but given the unquantifiable nature of something so vague as spiritual well-being
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it's really not that vague though. the "original affluence" is about having loads of leisure time. which is certainly quantifiable.

and "spirituality" is a thing invented by people who have lost it. ask a Dobe about "spiritual well-being" and he be like "huh?" "what that crazy western sonofabitch talkin bout?"
 
N

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
vimothy said:
Better than you? Worse than you? 3.5 times the median in developing world countries?
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But isn't that a wonderful illustration of the mindset of modern society?

If we look at all the things that really fuck us and our environment up are they not all products of the system we live in?

Alienation (from each other, from the land we live on, from the production of our food, from government...), pollution, lack of community, overpopulated cities, bad food, bad medicine... Yeah it's worse for people in other countries but that's because they pay a higher price than we do.

The other thing is that it's not necessarily about going back to some pre-agrarian society but about where we could be or could have been if the 'big mistake' had not been made or were now recognised.

I suppose in a way I'm undecided but I do sympathise with zhao's position.
 
N

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
I'd prefer to think about a totally integrated life where there is no division between work and play. Leisure is the little bit of leash-ur led out on before being reeled back into the machine maaan. I just made that up, pretty good huh?
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
noel emits said:
I'd prefer to think about a totally integrated life where there is no division between work and play. Leisure is the little bit of leash-ur led out on before being reeled back into the machine maaan. I just made that up, pretty good huh?
Click to expand...

But that would require that the entire world be geared towards the production of your happiness, that you be at the centre of everything, and that's clearly not the case.

I'm still interested as to why pre-argarian societies have higher standards of living than pre-industrial societies. Can anyone explain?
 
N

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Maybe the world is naturally geared towards providing for human beings? It did give rise to us after all. Do other animals evolve into scarcity and conditions that are not suitable for them? It doesn't even make sense from that perspective.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
noel emits said:
Maybe the world is naturally geared towards providing for human beings? It did give rise to us after all. Do other animals evolve into scarcity and conditions that are not suitable for them? It doesn't even make sense from that perspective.
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Other animals follow the same Malthusian logic that pre-agrarian hunters and pre-industrial economies follow.

Scarcity is a fact for all forms of life, it's not a trick.
 
N

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Well setting scarcity aside, we are creating an environment that is antithetical to our needs. That's got to be highly unusual. Pathological.

Maybe it's not so helpful to talk about no division between work and play as such. There's nothing wrong with working as long as you know why you are doing it and it is for the benefit of yourself and those you live with.
 
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