D
droid
Guest
They did air the Darfur and Chad Crisis Appeal in May 2007. Is that the one you mean?
Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...
- Thread starter Mr. Tea
- Start date
-
- Tags
- barf emoji basking perchance childlike tripe craner's been mossad from day one dissensus gets fatwa'd fatwa sex hmt govt hat keinen schwand jamaican voodoo gang from predator 2 knob v cretin linebaugh's balls ground into dust mixed biscuits is a virgin but he has clamydia nastiness new tab for trotsky proxy wars pussyclaat voodoo gang from predator 2 strictly for the consequentialist tea and biscuits the cancellation of stan the fundamentalist core of mr tea the hegel reference the lust to execute oliver craner the mythifus of sisyphus third cares for his okra third neglects his okra third puts okra up his bum
D
droid
Guest
scottdisco
rip this joint please
D
droid
Guest
Well, I certainly would argue with that sentence, on the basis that his previous sentence was:
Especially when you consider that Hamas' actions against Fatah was essentially a pre-emptive coup against Israeli/US armed and trained groups who were on the brink of ousting Hamas from power...
And of course you have to take into account that Hamas has offered ceasefire after ceasefire, made genuine efforts to control terror (no suicide bombs since they entered the political process), and have offered Israel peace on the basis of pre-1967 borders, only to be rewarded by a blockade, more violence, and political isolation from possibly the one group capable of breaking the diplomatic deadlock.
Last edited by a moderator:
scottdisco
rip this joint please
mea culpa Droid, my views are for jaw-jaw.
my second comment endorsing Miller's final sentence was more a cry of despair that Hamas have gone down the avenue they did, thus allowing themselves to be more easily marginalised.
(i was focusing in my head as i posted on the headline grabbing violence in the summer 2007 conflict that was specifically started with the Beit Hanoun killings in early June, though i was not explicit about that, and should have been.)
D
droid
Guest
Really Oliver? Do you mean that non-existent wall around the Hamas controlled Gaza? Or the actual illegal (according to the world court), land grabbing wall around the Fatah controlled West Bank?
Please stop embarassing yourself. You're better than your recent ill-judged posts on this thread suggests...
D
droid
Guest
And sorry to use this thread as a link dump, but I think this is relevant in relation to the pattern of ceasefire violations.
As we know, Hamas launched 10 rockets against Israel the day after they announced their unilateral ceasefire (the 18th), the condition of which was that Israel would not initiate conflict, but would respond to any attack against them.
Hamas then announced their week long unilateral ceasefire conditional on the blockade being lifted. On the 20th January 8 mortars were apparently fired against Israel, most landing within Gaza according to the Israeli press.
On 27th, an explosive device was detonated along the border, killing one IDF soldier and wounding 3.
On 28th/29th, 2 rockets were launched into Israel, with one of them being claimed by the Fatah offshoot, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.
On the Israeli side, the following incidents were reported (including the death of a child from sniper fire). Bear in mind that there was also retaliation for the incidents mentioned above.
Jan. 19 On 19 January, a Palestinian farmer was killed by Israeli gunfire east of Jabalia (PDF)
Jan. 20 Two Palestinian children were killed by explosives left behind by Israeli forces in Gaza and a farmer was shot dead by Israeli gunfire, hospital officials reported.
Jan. 21 Reports that the Israeli navy had continued to fire shells at Gaza from the Mediterranean
Jan. 22 Four Palestinians were injured on 22 January by a shell fired from an Israeli gunboat off the Gaza coast. The same day, a house was set on fire by a shell fired from an Israeli gunboat. No injuries were reported. Also on 22 January, IDF troops shot and injured a child east of Gaza City near the border.
Jan. 22 Two women, two children and an elderly man were wounded on Thursday by fire from Israeli navy boats patrolling the Mediterranean, medics said.
Jan. 22 Seven people were injured today after Israeli navy gunboats opened fire against Palestinian fishing boats off the Gaza Strip. On the fifth day of truce between Israel and Hamas, following incessant Israeli bombings in operation 'cast lead', the naval blockade of the Gaza Strip instituted by Israel is still in force.
Jan. 30 AN ISRAELI aircraft fired a rocket into the southern Gaza city of Khan Yunis yesterday, wounding a Palestinian gunman Israel claimed was linked to Tuesday’s bombing of an Israeli army border patrol. Five other people were hurt, most of them schoolchildren.
Ceasefire Broken From Day One (summary up to Jan 26th)
Once again Israel shows that it cannot even hold to its own unilateral conditions for ceasefire...
As we know, Hamas launched 10 rockets against Israel the day after they announced their unilateral ceasefire (the 18th), the condition of which was that Israel would not initiate conflict, but would respond to any attack against them.
Hamas then announced their week long unilateral ceasefire conditional on the blockade being lifted. On the 20th January 8 mortars were apparently fired against Israel, most landing within Gaza according to the Israeli press.
On 27th, an explosive device was detonated along the border, killing one IDF soldier and wounding 3.
On 28th/29th, 2 rockets were launched into Israel, with one of them being claimed by the Fatah offshoot, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.
On the Israeli side, the following incidents were reported (including the death of a child from sniper fire). Bear in mind that there was also retaliation for the incidents mentioned above.
Jan. 19 On 19 January, a Palestinian farmer was killed by Israeli gunfire east of Jabalia (PDF)
Jan. 20 Two Palestinian children were killed by explosives left behind by Israeli forces in Gaza and a farmer was shot dead by Israeli gunfire, hospital officials reported.
Jan. 21 Reports that the Israeli navy had continued to fire shells at Gaza from the Mediterranean
Jan. 22 Four Palestinians were injured on 22 January by a shell fired from an Israeli gunboat off the Gaza coast. The same day, a house was set on fire by a shell fired from an Israeli gunboat. No injuries were reported. Also on 22 January, IDF troops shot and injured a child east of Gaza City near the border.
Jan. 22 Two women, two children and an elderly man were wounded on Thursday by fire from Israeli navy boats patrolling the Mediterranean, medics said.
Jan. 22 Seven people were injured today after Israeli navy gunboats opened fire against Palestinian fishing boats off the Gaza Strip. On the fifth day of truce between Israel and Hamas, following incessant Israeli bombings in operation 'cast lead', the naval blockade of the Gaza Strip instituted by Israel is still in force.
Jan. 30 AN ISRAELI aircraft fired a rocket into the southern Gaza city of Khan Yunis yesterday, wounding a Palestinian gunman Israel claimed was linked to Tuesday’s bombing of an Israeli army border patrol. Five other people were hurt, most of them schoolchildren.
Ceasefire Broken From Day One (summary up to Jan 26th)
Once again Israel shows that it cannot even hold to its own unilateral conditions for ceasefire...
scottdisco
rip this joint please
Hamas and the hudna / hafsakat esh: worth discussing in terms of is it a genuine irreversible, historically permanent ceasefire that takes into account the legitimate demands of Zionism etc, or is it a fluid piece of rhetoric (eg 50 years or so long, but no more)?
i applaud - of course - Hamas' efforts to successfully control suicide bombs since they entered the peace process and this is, granted, something one should be very grateful toward them for (one assumes they can reverse this at the drop of a hat, given their previous industry in arranging suicide bombings so well?), and have nothing but condemnation for all the awful Israeli blocking of their attempts to engage.
i am not wanting to get into a slanging match here Droid, and have no doubt you can tell me a lot of statistics that i doubtless agree with the thrust of (it seems to be the case that you and i only fall out when i have failed to clarify something
) but just wanting anyone to comment on Hamas here, we have after all had a few comments on Israel, and just want to open the thread up for people with views on Hamas, and how Hamas are actually doing in Gaza; after all, i think we all know about the structural injustice of the Israeli blockade and whilst none of us are Hamas fans, i would be interested if anyone has any interesting views/news about themscottdisco
rip this joint please
D
droid
Guest
LOL... let them eat cake...
Will respond to your previous post (and to Dial's earlier question) once I have a bit more time on my hands. Thoroughly depressing threat of more war crimes from Olmert yesterday though:
"Speaking to his cabinet on Sunday, Israel's outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that Israel would respond "when and where we choose."
Mr Olmert said that the government's position was that "if there is shooting at residents of the south there will be an Israeli response that will be harsh and disproportionate by its nature to the shooting at residents of Israel and at our forces."
The Palestinian Authority's elected Hamas government in Gaza has not taken responsibility for any of the new attacks, which have been claimed by smaller militant groups. But Israel says that it holds Hamas responsible for all attacks emanating from Gaza."
Will respond to your previous post (and to Dial's earlier question) once I have a bit more time on my hands. Thoroughly depressing threat of more war crimes from Olmert yesterday though:
"Speaking to his cabinet on Sunday, Israel's outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that Israel would respond "when and where we choose."
Mr Olmert said that the government's position was that "if there is shooting at residents of the south there will be an Israeli response that will be harsh and disproportionate by its nature to the shooting at residents of Israel and at our forces."
The Palestinian Authority's elected Hamas government in Gaza has not taken responsibility for any of the new attacks, which have been claimed by smaller militant groups. But Israel says that it holds Hamas responsible for all attacks emanating from Gaza."
scottdisco
rip this joint please
yup, at least one fatality this morning in IAF strikes, no?
as for my earlier post at no. 211, it was probably a bit posey and rather vague / muddle-headed in terms of some generalisations, so please go easy on me
(also your pre-emptive characterisation of the summer 2007 conflict was something i discussed in my own post at no. 206 in brackets, but i made it look like i didn't realise that's what you were talking about, but i am clear that's what you were referring to, and yes, nobody disputes that the US arms Fatah fighters etc. or that Fatah men and Hamasniks are as brutal as each other. nobody serious, anyway, i should think.)
as for my earlier post at no. 211, it was probably a bit posey and rather vague / muddle-headed in terms of some generalisations, so please go easy on me
(also your pre-emptive characterisation of the summer 2007 conflict was something i discussed in my own post at no. 206 in brackets, but i made it look like i didn't realise that's what you were talking about, but i am clear that's what you were referring to, and yes, nobody disputes that the US arms Fatah fighters etc. or that Fatah men and Hamasniks are as brutal as each other. nobody serious, anyway, i should think.)
scottdisco
rip this joint please
D
droid
Guest
Of course, and thats a very salient point. In fact the PLO did the same in 1976 at the UN, but Israel refused to negotiate with them until they said uncle in '89. Now we see the same process at work with Hamas - a refusal by Israel to negotiate because of the (symbolic) Hamas charter, yet implicit recognition of Israel by Hamas. Meanwhile no-one bats an eyelid at Israel's continuing refusal to recognise Palestine, as reflected in the Likud charter (actually being implemented as we speak), which effectively calls for the ethnic cleansing of the entire West bank.
It's almost as if Israel doesn't want negotiations or peace... simply the right to continue settlement building and changing the 'facts on the ground', in the belief (probably correct), that whatever settlement does eventually take shape will encompass all of Israel's desires (see Oslo).
In short, Chomsky's seemingly contentious assertion that Hamas is far closer to the 40 year old international and UN approved consensus for a two state solution is accurate.
scottdisco
rip this joint please
redux
just wanted to tidy up this bit here and acknowledge - as Droid and Vimothy have done - that de facto recognition would exist in any agreement, and this is what Hamas have said.
the question of looking into the future of Hamas is a bit like reading the runes, and that's where psychology sort of mitigates against any convincing answer.
(Hizbollah are a long haul outfit, it must be said.)
thus, you get people asking in good faith isn't the hudna a sleight of hand, because in 30 years time Hamas will hope to break out and kill all Jews, or, on the other hand, someone might say if Israel took a few courageous leaps working toward a comprehensive, fair settlement (which they are not doing atm, and have not been doing), many many radicals might be sidelined and eventually silenced, and the next generation more hopeful. i also note, as Droid said, previous Palestinian interlocutors have offered practical recognition in return for talking, which the Israelis fiddled over for a long time.
that Likud constitution in the making is hateful. i suspect the reason why - as you say Droid - many people don't bat an eyelid about it, is because they do not know. many people have a low opinion of the Likud, but i admit this constitution is news to me.
i have not read all this piece yet with Khaled Abu Toameh, but he is worth reading.
he has spunk, and seems very clear-eyed on Hamas.
just wanted to tidy up this bit here and acknowledge - as Droid and Vimothy have done - that de facto recognition would exist in any agreement, and this is what Hamas have said.
the question of looking into the future of Hamas is a bit like reading the runes, and that's where psychology sort of mitigates against any convincing answer.
(Hizbollah are a long haul outfit, it must be said.)
thus, you get people asking in good faith isn't the hudna a sleight of hand, because in 30 years time Hamas will hope to break out and kill all Jews, or, on the other hand, someone might say if Israel took a few courageous leaps working toward a comprehensive, fair settlement (which they are not doing atm, and have not been doing), many many radicals might be sidelined and eventually silenced, and the next generation more hopeful. i also note, as Droid said, previous Palestinian interlocutors have offered practical recognition in return for talking, which the Israelis fiddled over for a long time.
that Likud constitution in the making is hateful. i suspect the reason why - as you say Droid - many people don't bat an eyelid about it, is because they do not know. many people have a low opinion of the Likud, but i admit this constitution is news to me.
i have not read all this piece yet with Khaled Abu Toameh, but he is worth reading.
he has spunk, and seems very clear-eyed on Hamas.
vimothy
yurp
There is an asymmetry in the negotiations: at the near-end, HAMAS must cede to Israel's central demand (recognition) to begin negotiations, thus removing any further incentive for Israel to make consessions. However, at the far-end, the situation is reversed, and Israel has to trust that the nascent Palestinian state really will cooperate on security issues.
Maybe Chomsky has acccess to intra-HAMAS debates, but it seems to me that both sides face short-term pressures/incentives that mitigate against peace, e.g. the asymmetry noted above, or the desire witnessed over the last few months to frustrate the enemy and prevent him from achieving short-term strategic success. HAMAS and Israel both have pretty rational reasons for not wanting to end the status quo -- that's the problem, no?
Maybe Chomsky has acccess to intra-HAMAS debates, but it seems to me that both sides face short-term pressures/incentives that mitigate against peace, e.g. the asymmetry noted above, or the desire witnessed over the last few months to frustrate the enemy and prevent him from achieving short-term strategic success. HAMAS and Israel both have pretty rational reasons for not wanting to end the status quo -- that's the problem, no?