Leo

Well-known member
Buh-bye, Bibi.

Was never a huge fan but lately he seemed to turn Trumpian, accusations of a witch hunt, stolen election, etc. Not that his replacement seems much more openminded about the situation there, mind.
 

Leo

Well-known member
Trump says Netanyahu "never wanted peace" with the Palestinians

Former President Donald Trump contends that one big reason his "ultimate deal" between the Israelis and Palestinians collapsed is that then-Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu never wanted to make peace.

"I don't think Bibi ever wanted to make peace," Trump told me in April, referring to Netanyahu by his nickname in a 90-minute, face-to-face interview for my new book, “Trump’s Peace: The Abraham Accords and the Reshaping of the Middle East. "I think he just tapped us along. Just tap, tap, tap, you know?"
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
So it's all kicking off again. Looks pretty serious this time. Just been chatting with a Palestinian mate of mine, who is extremely sanguine about the whole thing and thinks it represents a real shift in the balance of power towards Palestine, and will work out in their favour in the long run. Who knows? Weirder things have happened.
 

chava

Well-known member
So it's all kicking off again. Looks pretty serious this time. Just been chatting with a Palestinian mate of mine, who is extremely sanguine about the whole thing and thinks it represents a real shift in the balance of power towards Palestine, and will work out in their favour in the long run. Who knows? Weirder things have happened.
Yeah dream on
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
thinks it represents a real shift in the balance of power towards Palestine, and will work out in their favour in the long run
sure who knows but I seriously doubt it

the big short to medium term winner seems very likely to be Iran (or rather, the Iranian regime) if this postpones or scuttles entirely the forthcoming Isr-Saudi normalization deal, their govts mutual enmity of Iran being the major selling point of that deal. Finally cashing in all that Quds Force et al propping up of Hamas for a big ROI.

Hard to see Palestinians doing well out of this. Aside from the immediate/forthcoming massive Israeli response which will kill a ton of people, you couldn't have handed a better and more complete gift to the Israeli right-wing. They will basically have carte blanche both domestically and internationally in a way they haven't had in many decades to do whatever they want. That is possibly good for Hamas and its backers but terrible for Palestinian civilians.

Standard what do I know disclaimer, maybe in 5 years this will be seen as the moment that revived the two-state solution. But I doubt it.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
To be quite honest I doubt it too, but I wasn't gonna say that to one of my oldest and best friends.
 

shakahislop

Well-known member
Can you imagine you're at a rave that ends up with getting marched at gunpoint into gaza
it's another real life horror film. interesting that the free party is the bit that the guardian are focusing on a bit more in their stories. it's certainly the bit that hooks into our imaginations a bit easier. the (maybe fake, maybe real, who knows) video that's in this thread either shows the horror itself or is a manipulated fictionalised representation of it. kidnapping people and parading them in the streets, and taking videos of it all, brings to mind daesh.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
To be quite honest I doubt it too, but I wasn't gonna say that to one of my oldest and best friends.
Of course

And if you're Palestinian, I get it, what else can you do but hope for the best out of this miserable situation

I'm more responding to the many, many wild social media takes treating this as if it's another Intifada. Those were organic popular uprisings against an apartheid state. This is the organized mass murder of mostly civilians by a group at least as vile as the Netanyahu govt. So many "you're all for Palestinian liberation until it gets real" keyboard warrior type posts. Ironically it's the exact flipside of disingenuously conflating anti-semitism and anti-Zionism.
 

droid

Well-known member
sure who knows but I seriously doubt it

the big short to medium term winner seems very likely to be Iran (or rather, the Iranian regime) if this postpones or scuttles entirely the forthcoming Isr-Saudi normalization deal, their govts mutual enmity of Iran being the major selling point of that deal. Finally cashing in all that Quds Force et al propping up of Hamas for a big ROI.

Hard to see Palestinians doing well out of this. Aside from the immediate/forthcoming massive Israeli response which will kill a ton of people, you couldn't have handed a better and more complete gift to the Israeli right-wing. They will basically have carte blanche both domestically and internationally in a way they haven't had in many decades to do whatever they want. That is possibly good for Hamas and its backers but terrible for Palestinian civilians.

Ah, it doesnt matter. They already had carte blanche. They massacred over 200 people and injured 8000 just a few years ago in full and open view of the world, and thats just one specific incident in the appalling legacy of suffering since 2008 - we all know the history. The Israeli right doesn't require any emboldening, the fascists have essentially been running the country for at least a decade.

Regardless of what happens now, Hamas' ruthlessness and Israel's catastrophic security failures have shattered long held assumptions about the conflict and Israel's security and control capabilities. The symbolism of a successful attack against a seemingly untouchable enemy is immense, especially on the anniversary of Yom Kippur. It has shades of the cross border fedayeen raids prior to Black September and has the potential to enflame Arab public opinion across the entire region and spark a widespread rebellion, and ofc, it commands significant popular support even from those Palestinians who oppose Hamas politically, which is no surprise when you consider how thoroughly those people have been ground into the dirt by the occupation and how little they have left to lose.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
An operational and incredible propaganda coup, I'll say that. No one's done anything like this since really 1948? Internecine raiding and counterraiding in the 50s-60s (where Sharon first made his bones btw) but even that never reached near this scale. And to do it on the anniversary of the Yom Kippur War, well.

Idk if it punctures the myth of Israeli invincibility - that's been in decline since roughly 1982 - but certainly the myth of more or less domestic security. Suicide bombings, kidnappings, small incursions, yes, but this is the 1st time in the history of Israel that security has failed on this level. And Netanyahu's whole thing is that he's supposed to be the strongman who will protect you and your family.

Unfortunately when hardline stuff fails it's never an opportunity for criticism or self-examination, always an opportunity to double-down. And his statement was extremely grim.

Extremely grim couple of days all around.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Ah, it doesnt matter. They already had carte blanche. They massacred over 200 people and injured 8000 just a few years ago in full and open view of the world, and thats just one specific incident in the appalling legacy of suffering since 2008 - we all know the history. The Israeli right doesn't require any emboldening, the fascists have essentially been running the country for at least a decade.
I don't disagree with any of that. I was referring more to the international pressure and to a lesser extent Israeli domestic opposition that usually puts some kind of breaks on the violence, which will be almost nonexistent. Bc this could well be orders of magnitude worse.
 

droid

Well-known member
It's the inevitability of it all thats so depressing. Im sure Ive said this before, but it was only a matter of time. And next time round it will probably be a mini-nuke or a biological or chemical weapon in a major city.

There's the famous quote from Moshe Dayan from '67: "we don't have a solution, and you will continue living like dogs, and whoever wants will go, and we'll see how this procedure will work out." Well, this is how it works out. 52% of Gazan's now express no will to live, and this is one of the consequences.
 
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