padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
if anyone still remembers the Chechen Wars, attacks like this actually happened quite often, 2-3 times a year for several years

most famously the Moscow theater attack (whence the opening scene of Tenet) and the Beslan school siege

Beslan was particularly gruesome, almost 200 children killed

I don't remember much of any response besides boilerplate "we condemn these atrocities" statements

tho unlike Ukraine or Israel no one in the west, unfortunately, cared about Chechnya. and Russia's war there was so brutal that Putin (remember, still our friend, or maybe frenemy, at the time) wasn't exactly clamoring for scrutiny.

I do wonder if the Chechens/foreign jihadists would still have pursued that kind of sensational mass scale terrorism inside Russia in the age of social media. possibly? it certainly didn't help their cause then.
 

droid

Well-known member
This was a huge thing I saw on reddit. Iran helping the attacks to disrupt diplomatic talks between israel and saudi arabia. Not sure what to take of that but its another instance where deep politics suddenly become legitimate when it supports centrist talking points
This has been going round. Smells like bullshit, same with all the alleged Russia connections. Opportunistic propaganda.
 

version

Well-known member
so unlikely that it's hard to imagine but it would be a death knell for large-scale Western support

Zelenskyy would be the first and most vigorous to condemn it

even Russian govt knows it can't get away with this kind of thing. murdering civilians in secret and bombing them in cities, yes. this no.

this is some truly ISIS level stuff where you don't give a fuck about Western media or public opinion

I didn't mean mainstream as in official, I meant the average person on social media who's cheering on Ukraine. There are bog standard liberals all over Reddit and Twitter who barely seem to view Russians as people and who accuse anyone not toeing the line of being a Russian bot and whatever else.

I can't picture them changing their mind. I think it's more likely they'd try not to talk about it or claim it was Russian propaganda.
 

linebaugh

Well-known member
This has been going round. Smells like bullshit, same with all the alleged Russia connections. Opportunistic propaganda.

Yes its suspiciously convinient to reframe the situation outside the consideration of palestine if your ideologically bent towards israel, but who knows
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Zelensky compared Hamas to Russia the other day and attacked Iran for backing them.
He did this shortly after the invasion first began, too. A major PR error, I'd say, but then again he is Jewish, so he's no doubt going to feel differently about it from how most non-Jews do.
 

maxi

Well-known member
debates about who counts as "white" and who doesn't - not least because it's a totally unscientific term, and by using it as a category you're basically arguing on racists' terms, if you're doing so from an anti-racist perspective.
yeah that's essentially my point. it's only a relevant term in relation to its social meaning
And of course there is prejudice and discrimination against darker-skinned people in Israel, as there is in most countries, even within the Jewish population.
absolutely true. and they're all Israeli
 

version

Well-known member
and Russia's war there was so brutal that Putin (remember, still our friend, or maybe frenemy, at the time) wasn't exactly clamoring for scrutiny.

This was a bracing read when I stumbled across it last year:

As we left the ruins of Katyr Yurt, we saw wreckage from what was left of the white-flag convoy: broken cars, twisted, charred metal, a boot lying in the mud. And then we heard a burst of machine-gun fire, an echo of 'the refreshing and open' language of Vladimir Putin.

guardian.com/world/2000/mar/05/russia.chechnya
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
This has been going round. Smells like bullshit, same with all the alleged Russia connections. Opportunistic propaganda.
I mean, the Iranian regime has been supporting Hamas and using it as a proxy for 15+ years

that's not disputed by anyone, it's not even secret really

this attack probably advances Iranian regime goals, some of which tbf dovetail w/Hamas goals

I don't think top Hamas and Iranian officials sat in a room together working out the details or anything

or even that some Iranian general knew or green-lighted it or whatever. idk.

but it's not preposterous at all. Iran and Israel have been fighting proxy wars for decades and it's very much in Iran's interest to prevent Sunni-Israeli normalization.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
This has been going round. Smells like bullshit, same with all the alleged Russia connections. Opportunistic propaganda.
Well this immediately prompts two questions, doesn't it:

1 - What would Iran have to lose from fucking up relations between Israel and KSA? (Seems to me they'd have a lot to gain, on the contrary.)

2 - If the material aid hasn't come from Iran, then where has it come from? Gaza barely has electricity and sanitation, doesn't it? Are we meant to believe they have factories than can churn out thousands of rockets?
 

version

Well-known member
You could also ask what The Wall Street Journal stand to gain from claiming Iran were behind the attacks when even the Israeli military are hesitant or unable to say that.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
You could also ask what The Wall Street Journal stand to gain from claiming Iran were behind the attacks when even the Israeli military are hesitant or unable to say that.
a good rule of thumb in any military conflict, especially at the beginning, is to assume fog of war and take everything with a grain of salt

Western media outlets might ideological reasons for that claim, or they might just want to generate clicks, or both

]Israel is also in a delicate spot. reeling from enormous, unprecedented blow, unprecedented failure. probably not the time to go picking a fight with Iran, especially without very solid evidence. WSJ et al don't have any real skin in the game. as long they don't get sued for libel they can claim whatever.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
You could also ask what The Wall Street Journal stand to gain from claiming Iran were behind the attacks when even the Israeli military are hesitant or unable to say that.
TBH I have no idea. There could well be factions in the Israeli establishment that feel they would benefit from blame, or at least suspicion, being levelled at some of the Sunni Arab states, for example.

And it's certainly not just the WSJ fingering Iran for it, I think.
 

version

Well-known member
a good rule of thumb in any military conflict, especially at the beginning, is to assume fog of war and take everything with a grain of salt

Western media outlets might ideological reasons for that claim, or they might just want to generate clicks, or both

]Israel is also in a delicate spot. reeling from enormous, unprecedented blow, unprecedented failure. probably not the time to go picking a fight with Iran, especially without very solid evidence. WSJ et al don't have any real skin in the game. as long they don't get sued for libel they can claim whatever.

They consider themselves a serious publication though. They're not a tabloid. As much as clicks are a driver of content, I doubt they'd make a claim like that on the basis of clicks alone. You'd think they're either correct and, for the reason you've mentioned, Israel can't come out and make the same claim yet, or they've an ideological motivation for directing people's focus to Iran.

The Murdochs own WSJ. What's the stance of their papers been on Iran in the past?

And it's certainly not just the WSJ fingering Iran for it, I think.

Theirs is the report being cited by other publications from what I've seen though. It was an exclusive.
 

droid

Well-known member
I mean, the Iranian regime has been supporting Hamas and using it as a proxy for 15+ years

that's not disputed by anyone, it's not even secret really

this attack probably advances Iranian regime goals, some of which tbf dovetail w/Hamas goals

I don't think top Hamas and Iranian officials sat in a room together working out the details or anything

or even that some Iranian general knew or green-lighted it or whatever. idk.

but it's not preposterous at all. Iran and Israel have been fighting proxy wars for decades and it's very much in Iran's interest to prevent Sunni-Israeli normalization.

Well yeah, obv, I just meant the idea that this was specific op was somehow masterminded or equipped from Iran at all. If anything, Iranian involvement would probably have jeopardised its success. In fact I think i read a thing yesterday that Israeli and western intelligence were shocked that they hadnt heard anything about it from their usual Iranian sources.
 

droid

Well-known member
Well this immediately prompts two questions, doesn't it:

1 - What would Iran have to lose from fucking up relations between Israel and KSA? (Seems to me they'd have a lot to gain, on the contrary.)

2 - If the material aid hasn't come from Iran, then where has it come from? Gaza barely has electricity and sanitation, doesn't it? Are we meant to believe they have factories than can churn out thousands of rockets?

Christ. We all know the stuff comes through the tunnels from Egypt, and yes some of it comes from Iran, but with regard to this particular operation, I see no reason to suspect any particular link. Bear in mind that Israel has been looking for a chance to attack Iran for years, those annual speeches at the UN, the nuclear threat etc.

Id say in fact that maybe the biggest threat in the medium term is of this being used as casus belli for a hot war with Iran, esp with a US carrier group steaming into the region.
 

droid

Well-known member
They consider themselves a serious publication though. They're not a tabloid. As much as clicks are a driver of content, I doubt they'd make a claim like that on the basis of clicks alone. You'd think they're either correct and, for the reason you've mentioned, Israel can't come out and make the same claim yet, or they've an ideological motivation for directing people's focus to Iran.
I assumed we were beyond the point of believing anything American media says about the middle east? Like 20 years past it?
 

shakahislop

Well-known member
Not to distract from the bigger brains having a discussion about more important issues, but noticed that the wikipedia page on Hamas focuses on different details than the coverage from the usual other sources I've been reading (ie the guardian etc). I was reading it because I realised I didn't really know what Hamas is. I suppose its not unrealistic to think that the online effort to influence public opinion is in full effect in this shock phase of reality changing, there are always opportunities in that kind of acute period before everything settles down.


Hamas' religious fundamentalism, stance against Israel, its perceived efficiency, and lack of corruption compared to Fatah has led the organization to receive widespread popularity and support among Palestinians.[47][48] It has a social service wing, Dawah, and a military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.[e][f] Hamas usage of human shields[51] (allegedly for propaganda purposes)[52] and deliberate infliction of terror to achieve its objectives — including hostage taking and violence against civilian populations — is controversial, with many countries designating it as terrorist organization and others justifying it as a part of indigenous struggle.[g]

On October 7, 2023, Hamas launched a major attack on Israel.[38] Militants led a massacre at Re'im music festival; many Israeli women civilians were raped in the aftermath.[54] Sources in Hamas and Israel's military establishment told Reuters that it was the culmination of a campaign to deceive Israel into thinking that the group was primarily interested in economic and governance issues instead of waging war.[55] Abu Obeida, spokesman of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, announced it would begin livestreaming executions of Israeli and foreign hostages if Israel continued to launch missile strikes against Hamas in Gaza.[56][57] On October 9, news organizations reported that Hezbollah was considering an imminent declaration of war against Israel; Syria, Iran, and the Houthis have also been reported to be considering entrance.[58][59][60]
[61]
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
You'd think they're either correct and, for the reason you've mentioned, Israel can't come out and make the same claim yet, or they've an ideological motivation for directing people's focus to Iran.
they could also think they're correct and be wrong.

the point is just that there are multiple reasons why a Western media outlet might announce that before official Israeli sources.
 
Top