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Thread: the nuum back lash

  1. #1
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  2. #2
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    As if any of this stuff (the music or the criticism) will be (worthy) of any interest in a hundred years' time...

    Part of the function of the 'nuum is, tellingly, to insist that the music is strong enough to foster a significant heritage.
    Last edited by mixed_biscuits; 17-01-2008 at 05:11 PM.

  3. #3
    simon silverdollar Guest

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    yep, it was bound to happen sooner or later!

    i think grime, funky house and bassline have effectively killed off the hardcore continuum as a useful way of seeing what's happening in UK underground music; grime because it owes much more to crunk and dancehall than to rave or even jungle, and funky house and bassline because, well, the hardcore continuum's always had a problem slotting house music in.
    Last edited by simon silverdollar; 17-01-2008 at 05:56 PM.

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    Need to get a nu 'nuum.

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    not a bad thing. for the type of music that goes under the 'num', having a 'num' theory in the first place is not necessarily what you want. then again, half the artists dont really give a shit or know about 'the num' in the first place and arent really fixated on the history etc to begin with. there, that was conclusive.

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    Hardly surprising that music would spring out of the theory put upon it though. There are massive parallels with hard house in bassline music, though, that of course inadvertently springing from hardcore itself. didn't even know about this theory until about a year ago though, so what do i know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polz View Post
    or maybe they hear clearer from a distance. Of cours grime artists dont acknowledge or even know a link to bleep or whatever, but that does not mean it is not there. When i hear grime or dubstep or bassline, i hear similarities with rave, jungle and of course 2step. I even hear soul II soul and maybe even 2 tone (or LKJ for instance). I think you could expand "the nuum" in stead of shrink it.
    (funky is still shit though)
    I think the issue is that the 'nuum model kind of implies that its hermetically sealed and, erm, continuous. Which was quite a good description of hardcore->darkcore->jungle->drum and bass if not a perfect one, but which then becomes less compelling when it starts jumping and branching - so we view garage as being the descendant of jungle and not part of a 'US->UK garage continuum'.

    One obvious approach is to start tracing a whole set of trajectories rather than selecting a special one.

    Someone's going to use the word rhizome soon...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mixed_biscuits View Post
    As if any of this stuff (the music or the criticism) will be (worthy) of any interest in a hundred years' time...

    Part of the function of the 'nuum is, tellingly, to insist that the music is strong enough to foster a significant heritage.
    really?

    so you don't like the music you listen to ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by simon silverdollar View Post
    yep, it was bound to happen sooner or later!

    i think grime, funky house and bassline have effectively killed off the hardcore continuum as a useful way of seeing what's happening in UK underground music; grime because it owes much more to crunk and dancehall than to rave or even jungle, and funky house and bassline because, well, the hardcore continuum's always had a problem slotting house music in.
    why is it then, that grime mcs often namecheck jungle as genre or even specific raves. i don't hear as many shouts to crunk artists (although i appreciate some grime people have worked with lil jon etc).

    like anything, theres some truth to it, but it doesn't come close to explaining everything. when people try to do that, it stretches the theory further than it can viably go.

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    I think it's a GREAT theory with really useful, broad applications.

    I think it SUCKS when people start dissing grime because they don't think it's the Next Big Thing any more and use the 'nuum theory to hype up their reputation as taste-makers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grievous Angel View Post
    I think it's a GREAT theory with really useful, broad applications.

    I think it SUCKS when people start dissing grime because they don't think it's the Next Big Thing any more and use the 'nuum theory to hype up their reputation as taste-makers.
    i suppose it irks the youngsters to have all these old fogies like us going "yeah, well the history of your music goes like this". it used to annoy me when my dad did it, but of course he was into all kinds of scenes and now i know hes got a lot of interesting things to say, but at the time i was so determined that what i was into was utterly revolutionary i didn't want to hear it.

  12. #12
    simon silverdollar Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by bassnation View Post
    why is it then, that grime mcs often namecheck jungle as genre or even specific raves. i don't hear as many shouts to crunk artists (although i appreciate some grime people have worked with lil jon etc).
    yeah, there's clearly a lot of enthusiasm for jungle in grime, and it's certainly an influence (quite explicitly in goodz's MCing or in tubby and footsie's productions, say) but i wouldn't say it's the predominant influence on grime, which is where trying to fit grime into the hardcore continuum falls down- it gives the wrong focus.

    production-wise, early on in grime people like dizzee and wiley used to talk about their music as a UK version of dirty south hiphop (also. other hiphop scenes were massively important: in 2004-5 grime was very clearly Dipset influenced). fro an MCing perspective, dancehall has been massively influential. seeing grime through the lens of the hardcore continuum is interesting and can be valuable, but it skews things, because it misses out the massive influence of other MC cultures, from a whole different 'continuum'.

    interestingly, though, Geeneus DOES see grime and dubstep as part of the whole hardcore continuum: google my Fact interview with him if you're interested.
    Last edited by simon silverdollar; 17-01-2008 at 10:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simon silverdollar View Post
    yeah, there's clearly a lot of enthusiasm for jungle in grime, and it's certainly an influence (quite explicitly in goodz's MCing or in tubby and footsie's productions, say) but i wouldn't say it's the predominant influence on grime, which is where trying to fit grime into the hardcore continuum falls down.

    early on in grime people like dizzee and wiley used to talk about their music as a UK version of dirty south hiphop (and then in 2004-5 grime was very clearly Dipset influenced); seeing grime through the lens of the hardcore continuum is interesting and and be valuable, but it skews things, because it misses out the massive influence of other MC cultures, from a whole different 'continuum'.

    interestingly, though, Geeneus DOES see grime and dubstep as part of the whole hardcore continuum: google my Fact interview with him if you're interested.
    thing is, hardcore was a fusion of all kinds of music - hip hop being as much an influence as house music, and in that way grime is similar. but hip hop these days is radically different to how it was in the early nineties and kids today have grown up with this monster, international nuanced genre.

    yes, definitely interested in the interview - going to check it right now

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    it's convenient shorthand but it misses a lot and it's been lazily overused as the basis for personal moans and grand generalizations

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    Quote Originally Posted by simon silverdollar View Post
    interestingly, though, Geeneus DOES see grime and dubstep as part of the whole hardcore continuum: google my Fact interview with him if you're interested.
    Yes, and the thing is, the nuum isn't supposed to be exclusive - it's not meant to exclude hiphop from grime (or jungle... or garage... or house... or techno...) - quite the reverse! (Though I tend to see the whole nuum as essentially the story of how reggae got rooted in this country and mutated.)

    The nuum-like evolution of the scenes from reggae and soul into everything else is easy to see and things like bassline house fit into that sequence. But using nuum theory to privelege bassline over grime is a misapplication of the theory...
    Last edited by Grievous Angel; 18-01-2008 at 12:39 AM. Reason: Being offensive without actually meaning it...
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