Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well, that's what I remember having read - what did she say, then?
Islamophobia
- Thread starter zhao
- Start date
Well, that's what I remember having read - what did she say, then?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Oh for fuck's sake...do you have anything constructive to add, or are you just going to take snide (and irrelevant) potshots?
Irrelevant, because I'm talking about Iran's human rights record and Amis wants to deport British Muslims (or whatever nonsense he's spouting today)...surely you can see the difference here? I mean, you *can* see it, right?
crackerjack
Well-known member
The article was bemoaning the way black music was disappearing from the mainstream. She never said anyone was racist for preferring indie to R&B. The stuff about her own taste was thrown in to show where she was coming from and declare her longstanding bias against indie.
swears
preppy-kei
Whoa there, big guy!
I just think the whole Amis thing is interesting because like the author of that piece, I'm a fan of his novels and he's been coming out with some pretty unsavoury comments lately.
Link wasn't anything to do with your posts, any link-zinging was unintended. I've got a shitload on at work at the moment, so I was going to expand on this article later on...
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droid
Guest
Thanks for the clarification, when you said 'Islamic culture', it seemed like you meant 'Islamic culture', and not Islamic countries.
What about Zhao's (and my own) point that there a loads of reasons for this - Islam being only one of many factors.
First of all, according to your own link, the US and China are amongst the worst - in fact China is THE worst for executions.
Also, the US DOES incarcerate the highest percentage of its population of any country in the world - so you'd better start believing.
I notice you've ignored the example of China here as well. Looking for political or religious reasons for execution? look no further. Is that something to do with 'Asian' culture?
This is totally disingenuous. So you knew when you said that 'Islamic cultures = no democracy or human rights' in a thread about Islamaphobia, that people might point out the Islam is not necessarily the cause of these abuses and that human rights abuses also happen on a large scale on non-islamic countries... surprise surprise.
No-one told you to 'shut up' either.
Also the comparison you draw between who gets executed in each country - obviously execution for political sexual or religious crimes is absolutely abhorrent, but so is the execution of minors and the mentally disabled - both should be opposed, and claiming there is something in the 'culture'(a claim you've now withdrawn yes?) that causes either is nonsensical.
Im not denying that a certain interpretation of Islam is a factor in the lack of democracy in Islamic countries, but its a symptom, not the cause. And anyway - look at Indonesia - the worlds largest Islamic country and a democracy (at least since a US installed ruler for life was ousted).
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well, fair enough...I'd have let it pass but it's not the first time you've compared me to Amis. Or at least, you've compared me to Amis before, and it certainly looked like you were doing it again here.
crackerjack
Well-known member
A few short years ago. It's a bit early to be claiming Indonesia proves anything either way.
the bottom line is that this current (but started maybe some time ago) wave of Islamophobia is ENGINEERED, and fabricated by parties with something to gain by its proliferation.
and all those in the view that the Islam faith itself is somehow fundamentally very different from other spiritual traditions in its advocacy of violence or imperialism ARE BRAIN-WASHED PAWNS OF THE GREAT SATAN AND SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH. (just kidding) (only the very last part)
and all those in the view that the Islam faith itself is somehow fundamentally very different from other spiritual traditions in its advocacy of violence or imperialism ARE BRAIN-WASHED PAWNS OF THE GREAT SATAN AND SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH. (just kidding) (only the very last part)
UFO over easy
online mahjong
I went to school with Martin Amis' son. Unsurprisingly, he had an ego the size of the moon and seemed pretty fucked up. Very clever though. He was really into dancehall.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
OK, some points re. Droid's reply...
I said "Islamic cultureS" (note the S) to show that I appreciate (where some don't) that there is no such thing as 'global Islam', any more than a Baptist from the Midwest and a Catholic from Paraguay belong to the 'same culture' just because they're both Christians. I said "Islamic countries" because there are many countries in the world with predominantly or wholly Muslim populations where the rule of law, for one thing, is predicated on the state religion.
As regards China, I am by no means letting any other culture or country off the hook for human rights violations, totalitarian government and the like - sorry if I was giving that impression, I should have addressed this point. But this thread is about Islamophobia, presumably in largely non-Muslim places like the US or Europe. Because we're not talking about Sinophobia here - which perhaps is related to the notable absence of Chinese people burning flags and besieging foreign embassies in China, or staging angry protests in London or Birmingham.
Whereas there are Muslims in Britain - *some* Muslims, I should add, but they tend to be the most vocal - saying that this country would be better off adopting 'Muslim values'...I look at countries where these values are the basis of law and constitution, and I don't see societies that I want to be a part of.
I think you're right about it being a certain interpretation of Islam that's the problem here - I mean, all manner of religions have been used in this way - but I'm not sure about your point about it being a 'symptom, not a cause'. What is it a symptom of, then? What's the root cause of it?
I said "Islamic cultureS" (note the S) to show that I appreciate (where some don't) that there is no such thing as 'global Islam', any more than a Baptist from the Midwest and a Catholic from Paraguay belong to the 'same culture' just because they're both Christians. I said "Islamic countries" because there are many countries in the world with predominantly or wholly Muslim populations where the rule of law, for one thing, is predicated on the state religion.
As regards China, I am by no means letting any other culture or country off the hook for human rights violations, totalitarian government and the like - sorry if I was giving that impression, I should have addressed this point. But this thread is about Islamophobia, presumably in largely non-Muslim places like the US or Europe. Because we're not talking about Sinophobia here - which perhaps is related to the notable absence of Chinese people burning flags and besieging foreign embassies in China, or staging angry protests in London or Birmingham.
Whereas there are Muslims in Britain - *some* Muslims, I should add, but they tend to be the most vocal - saying that this country would be better off adopting 'Muslim values'...I look at countries where these values are the basis of law and constitution, and I don't see societies that I want to be a part of.
I think you're right about it being a certain interpretation of Islam that's the problem here - I mean, all manner of religions have been used in this way - but I'm not sure about your point about it being a 'symptom, not a cause'. What is it a symptom of, then? What's the root cause of it?
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crackerjack
Well-known member
A lot of those who are most vocal are promoted way beyond their importance because they make good TV. When you've got a choice between some sane Sufi talking reasonably and al-Jihadi the Headchopper threatening to decapitate the Home Secretary you know which one is the ratings winner.
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droid
Guest
Thanks for that Tea. Id like to keep things relatively friendly around here if at all possible.When I say its a 'symptom' rather than a cause - I think there are many examples in history when extremists have gained power and support from populations - and its usually due to other avenues of development or opportunities being unavailable for one reason or another. In the case of the Middle East and North Africa, it really is difficult to come to any conclusion without taking the long history of colonialism and foreign interventions in that area into account.
E
Electric Angel
Guest
I'm not an Islamophobe, and I'm a tolerant person - but I find very little positive about Islam, as I do with all major religions. To quote the (fantastic) Canadian comedian Glenn Wool, "It's not a phobia if you know why you don't like it!"
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Of course, and I appreciate this. But who, out of these two, makes the more persuasive and charismatic figure in the local mosque?
crackerjack
Well-known member
Given most indicators show support for Sharia and/or suicide bombing as well below half. al-Jihadi is still a minority mouthpiece.
This isn't, though, to deny the main case. Islam does have a significant problem with religious extremism and I think those seeking to deny this or wave it away by highlighting capital punishment in the US or human rights abuses in Guantanomo are engaging in massive self-delusion.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Yeah, sure. I've seen what happened to you when you tried to keep the peace on one memorable occasion...
Well yeees, these developments never occur in isolation, of course, but there's only so much apologetics and white guilt you can come out with, and it's important not to fall into the trap of seeing Muslims exclusively as passive victims, forever reacting in the only way they can to the actions of the West...their leaders have their own agendas, just as ours do, and they should be engaged with as such.
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Electric Angel
Guest
Indeed, indeed. It would be nice if some form of mutual tolerance could be found. Religion by its very nature is exclusive and, whatever they may like to think, intolerant. However, by no means are atheists or agnostics innocent, as they too are often intolerant of those who choose to have faith. (Apologies for going ever-so-slightly off-topic)