Are we going to get a Tory government next election?

Christ, I hope not but it's looking that way. Remember when Gordon Brown was supposed to be improving Labour's fortunes?

I was looking forward to Gordon Brown taking over Labour. In an overly-simplified, and perhaps optimistic view, I imagined that during his time under Tony Blair he was thinking of ways to "re-invent" or at least progress, and revamp, the Labour party. This initially seemed to be the case, when the rhetoric about the Iraq war was somewhat retreated on by David Milliband (if I remember correctly), however after that it just seemed to be more and more issues suggesting incompetence.

On the other hand, I've never really trusted the Tory party - somehow I've constantly felt that behind Cameron's modernisation, pseudo-liberalisation and apparent departure from "old Tory politics", it's the same party in disguise - but then given the string of Labour failings, I suppose maybe it's time another party "had a chance" (although that sort of makes light the whole point of politics and progressive change). I would have fewer problems with the Tories in power had the proposed coalition between the Tories and Lib Dems gone through

I think it's a real tragedy that the Lib Dems never overtook the Tories as the second party and knocked them out of the game for good. I mean, look at the run of leaders they had: Hague, Duncan Smith, Howard... easy targets.

I am not a fan of of any of the parties, btw. The system as a whole is pretty rotten, but any shift to the left is welcome nowadays.

Oh man, I was so hyped for the first 100 days of Gordon Brown after all the talking up Dianne Abbot did on This Week, week in week out. I thought it was going to be like the glory days of early New Labour, with radical status-quo quashing reforms being set out for the future...

How wrong I was.

Still, Cameron seems pretty bad at capitalizing on the failures of the Labour Party even although he does seem to batter Gordon Brown on PMQs, something that never happened under Tony Blair.

what fucking difference would it make?

fokse vektaire xeven said:

what fucking difference would it make?

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Exactly! Its a pretty cynical way of looking at things but labour to tory would hardly represent a radical shift would it? Still, is it a bad thing really? Do we want the option of some populist radical alternative or are we happy with two centrist parties who differ only slightly but who clearly don't propose radical policies which potentially threaten to destabilize the country?

Choice is what its all about and i think that more choice would be better -- but it depends on what alternatives are offered.

browns a pragmatist, if your looking for strong ideologies you wont find them during his term,
i by and large agree with his standpoint on alot of things, i wouldn't say it refreshing but its been a welcome reprieve from the cynical spin touted by Blair and Cameron, I'm not sure party politics is even relevant in the British system anymore, they are largely interchangeable its just a battle for the middle ground.

The tories are a fucking shambles as well - Cameron rebranding doesn't seem to be going down too well.

I suspect that, as there is very little difference between the parties, people will stick to "the devill they know" next time - barring something cataclysmic between now and then, such as a massive economic crisis. :slanted:

Does anyone think that it migth be good for British politics if there were a couple of genuinely extremist parties - say, one to the left and one to right - which regularly polled (say) 5 or 10% of the vote? So there'd be no chance of them ever forming a government, but had enough of a presence in Parliament to have some kind of effect on the political culture of the two main parties? Just so as to shake us up out the rut we're in at the moment.

I dunno, it would probably be an awful idea, because people (who hadn't voted for those parties) would have to live in the constituencies their members represent. It was just a thought...

Mr. Tea said:

Does anyone think that it migth be good for British politics if there were a couple of genuinely extremist parties - say, one to the left and one to right - which regularly polled (say) 5 or 10% of the vote? So there'd be no chance of them ever forming a government, but had enough of a presence in Parliament to have some kind of effect on the political culture of the two main parties? Just so as to shake us up out the rut we're in at the moment.

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it wouldn't be too great if one of the extremist parties managed to creep up to the 30% mark though! would more people vote for the extreme right/(left) if they thought they had a genuine chance of forming a government?

Don't think you want somebody like Le Pen in UK politics...

swears said:

Don't think you want somebody like Le Pen in UK politics...

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No, of course not, I just had this Gek-esque moment of wondering if something that on the face of it is really bad could have some long-term or overarching good to it that would outweight the bad.

And I can't help but get the impression French politics is a lot more interesting than ours, whatever else it might be...

Mr. Tea said:

And I can't help but get the impression French politics is a lot more interesting than ours, whatever else it might be...

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French politics is fascinating - not the individuals or the dynamic between the main parties, but the fact that it's a major, prosperous west european nation and it just seems to damn unstable.

40 years ago the Big War Hero was effectively scared out of office by a bunch of students playing at Marxism; it's the only major western democracy where diirect action (or what the Romans would have called ''the mob') is still a force to be reckoned with and where anti-democratic parties get a large vote (Le Pen now, the communists (themselves the last bastion of Stalinism in W European communism) before them); and it's also the only W European country which hasn't suffered serious terrorism, whether from far left, far right or separatists.

crackerjack said:

French politics is fascinating - not the individuals or the dynamic between the main parties, but the fact that it's a major, prosperous west european nation and it just seems to damn unstable.

40 years ago the Big War Hero was effectively scared out of office by a bunch of students playing at Marxism; it's the only major western democracy where diirect action (or what the Romans would have called ''the mob') is still a force to be reckoned with and where anti-democratic parties get a large vote (Le Pen now, the communists (themselves the last bastion of Stalinism in W European communism) before them); and it's also the only W European country which hasn't suffered serious terrorism, whether from far left, far right or separatists.

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Dunno if more extreme parties are a good idea- a start might be to have clearly demarcated mainstream left and right wing parties, perhaps, rather than an undifferentiated grey political goo for all three major parties marked by incessant triangulation and swing-seat targeting (and the relentless hegemony of the status quo, dressed up, of course as "radical reforms"). Of course more "extreme" parties would probably emerge (as more dynamically important forces within the political process) if we shifted from first passed the post to PR.

Also worth noting that France DID just elect someone who promised to "liquidate '68"...

gek-opel said:

Dunno if more extreme parties are a good idea- a start might be to have clearly demarcated mainstream left and right wing parties, perhaps, rather than an undifferentiated grey political goo for all three major parties marked by incessant triangulation and swing-seat targeting (and the relentless hegemony of the status quo, dressed up, of course as "radical reforms")

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Then we'd probably have four years of radical policies, followed by a change in governement, and the opposite side dismantling everything and starting again. I think some sort of broad consensus is the best approach, with government doing little to alter the existing framework, and all rules applying to everyone equally.

What I'd like to see is the political parties working together in some respect, rather than just playing their childish games of "Ooo you could never run the country cause you're SILLY"...or something to that effect. I do not appreciate the way in that political parties are never welcome to the idea that a different party may be able to do a better job on some areas, or have more progressive ideas. For example, I would rather have the Liberal Democrats command on issues such as civil liberties but I would rather have the Conservatives command on issues such as crime and punishment.