Bear Stearns...

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Pound was a Fascist advocate though, wasn't he. I thought the notion that you could print your way out of recession was quite common back then."
Dunno the context in which Pound said it but normally when someone bangs on about banks creating money from thin air they are being critical of the banks. What was he saying Luka?

"I think Lewis is a bit more on the ball than IdleRich gives him credit for."
I'm not saying he's not on the ball, I'm saying that he is deliberately not telling the whole story.

"Is that the right way to think about it? Someone lends the bank £100, they lend out £90 (probably more) to someone who then lends it back to the bank, who promptly lend it out to someone else. That's what deposits are, right -- liabilities?"
It's "a" right way to think about it. The deposits are liabilities yes, but what I'm saying is that the bank has used £100 to lend £900; there is a sense in which it has multiplied money, there is a sense in which it hasn't but for someone to just say "a banker won't know what you mean if you ask him how much money he's multiplied" is being dishonest.
My understanding is that the inverse of the fractional reserve is commonly known as the money multiplier (ie if the bank keeps 1/10 of its deposits then the money multiplier is 10), maybe that's a misleading name but surely there is some reason for this? Isn't one way that the government can tighten money supply by raising the required fractional reserve? I dunno, I'm sure you know more about this than me.
 

vimothy

yurp
Lehman: We're Not Bear, and We're Not Screwed

  • The Fed's new move -- giving broker-dealers access to the discount window -- changes the whole ball-game. If the Fed had made this move last Wednesday, the insider argues, Bear wouldn't have been toast.
  • Lehman's liquidity ratio is far stronger than Bear's was.

EDIT: I should at that I've read somewhere that this delay, which probably killed Bear Stearns, was pay-back for refusing help when LTCM went under...
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
The Dow Jones finished up yesterday in the end I believe.

"EDIT: I should at that I've read somewhere that this delay, which probably killed Bear Stearns, was pay-back for refusing help when LTCM went under..."
I'd like to believe that that was true, that such huge sums of money could depend on a decade long grudge when most of the people involved have almost certainly moved to different companies. I doubt it though, my guess is that the stakes are too high for messing about and they simply want to send out a signal saying "be careful, we recognise that we can't let a huge bank go right under but we're not going to just save any idiot willy-nilly and we won't necessarily save you in a way that means you can carry on just like before". Which seems like a fairly good course to take, I mean you were saying that they shouldn't have bailed them out and others are saying that what happened is revenge so to my mind they've taken a middle course.
 

vimothy

yurp
I'm not saying he's not on the ball, I'm saying that he is deliberately not telling the whole story.

Ah, ok. Lewis is just trying to make a point in a "I'm like a cool rebel banker/economist turned underground journo" kind of way. I think that you're both talking about the same thing but disagreeing over the right language.

It's "a" right way to think about it. The deposits are liabilities yes, but what I'm saying is that the bank has used £100 to lend £900; there is a sense in which it has multiplied money, there is a sense in which it hasn't but for someone to just say "a banker won't know what you mean if you ask him how much money he's multiplied" is being dishonest.

Yeah but it now has liabilities on those assets -- it hasn't just taken £100, waved its magic wand and turned it into £900. It borrows £100 (liability), lends £90 (asset), borrows £81 (liability), lends £72.90 (asset) and so on... It made itself a lot of money in that process, but it also made itself a lot of debt. In that sense the banking system "creates" money by enabling these huge chains of credit. Otherwise, there'd be no interest rates and banks would just be places were you keep cash.

Where it seems to me that the banks multiply money is in return to equity. You might have a 2.5% return on your assets (not great), but a 25% return on capital (due to high leverage), because the bank is borrowing at one rate and lending at another, and the rewards are not insignificant. Of course, when it goes bad, thanks to the same high leverage, it goes really bad, and losses are mulitplied by the same factor.

My understanding is that the inverse of the fractional reserve is commonly known as the money multiplier (ie if the bank keeps 1/10 of its deposits then the money multiplier is 10), maybe that's a misleading name but surely there is some reason for this? Isn't one way that the government can tighten money supply by raising the required fractional reserve?

It's a Keynesian term, isn't it? Think that this is some sort of factional economist thing, where Lewis is a gold standard Austrian, and so he naturally thinks that the Keynesian economic macro models are wrong. Lewis says that the amount of capital (not the reserves provisioned against loss, which are a net loss on the balance sheet and so are going to be relatively small if the bank wants to turn a short term profit and keep its shareholders happy) is not necessarily related to the loans that a bank can or cannot make (i.e. a supply-side issue), but that the loans a bank can or can't make is related to the economy as a whole, as in whether or not there are buyers for the loans (i.e. a demand side issue). Raising the fractional reserve (EDIT: by which I mean provisions, not asset:capital ratio, which seems to me to be more important), according to Lewis, could potentially have dire side-effects thanks to the banks' high leverage.

I dunno, I'm sure you know more about this than me.

I doubt that -- we've got no chance of figuring out what's going on, if so ;)
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
"In that sense the banking system "creates" money by enabling these huge chains of credit. Otherwise, there'd be no interest rates and banks would just be places were you keep cash."
Yeah, that's what I'm saying, the banks are more than that, and in fact are more than something that simply borrows and lends at different rates contrary to what Lewis is trying to imply.

"The Dow is only a few stocks, though, isn't it? I think that might be mostly thanks to JP Morgan Chase..."
I think it's mostly due to pricing in an interest rate cut. The Dow (Jones Industrial Average to give it its full name) is 30 stocks but they are big ones that are widely held and I think that they are supposed to give some kind of representation of the market as a whole though obviously its representativeness is limited. I'm not sure how much of it JP Morgan makes up (I'll find out), the index is price-weighted rather than weighted by capitalisation which always seems a strange way to do it to me.
 

vimothy

yurp
This is long but is the essential bit of his argument, I think. Nathan Lewis:

Last week, we talked about how credit losses lead to shrinkage of the bank's capital base. Typically, when banks have capital impairment (losses), there is much hue and cry that lending will shrink as a result, leading to recession. This is based on a very simple multiplication: banks typically have about 10:1 leverage. Their assets (mostly loans) are typically about 10x their capital base. So, this simple line of thinking goes, if capital shrinks by 20%, then loans must also shrink by 20% to keep the ratio in line. And indeed, the BIS capital ratio requirements mandate that large banks not get too far out of line regarding these ratios.

Oh my GAAAD! Horror! We're doomed!!!!

But banks don't really work like that. This is a subset of a broader group of theories, that an economy can be managed by a sort of mechanical top-down monetarist approach. The "money multiplier" was another of these ideas, as is the old "MV=PT" theory which actually dates from the 17th century, if not earlier. They are all based on the idea that there is some amount of "money" (or capital), and everyone jumps up and down like puppets depending on this one quantity variable. Thus, if banks have capital, then they create loans according to some sort of inevitable mechanical multiplication function, and if they don't have capital then loans shrink by the same inevitable mechanical multiplication function.

The world doesn't work like this at all. Just think of why borrowers and lenders get together in the first place. The borrower thinks: "If I borrow this money, then I can invest in an asset (or business) that, over time, will produce an effective return on capital greater than the rate of interest on the debt, and I'll make a profit." OK, that's a little technical, but the basic story is that the borrower sees an opportunity to put capital to use. The lender is thinking almost the same thing: "If I lend this money, I can enjoy a return on assets (the interest on the loan, minus credit risk) greater than the interest paid on my borrowing (which is the interest paid to depositors mostly), and thus enjoy a profit." In other words, it's a win-win situation, as it would have to be or nobody would do it voluntarily....

To summarize, lending is not driven by capital, rather capital is driven by opportunities in the lending business. Probably every businessman understands this, as it is true not only of banks but of practically any industry.

A good example of this appeared in Japan. In the 1990s, we were hearing the same baloney about how banks couldn't lend because they didn't have enough capital, and if there was more capital, then banks would lend more, and the economy would recover. There was a major failed bank called Long Term Credit Bank of Japan. The government thought it would use this bank as an experiment. They effectively nationalized the bank and sold it to some foreign (US mostly) investors, who effectively made a new bank out of it. (The new bank is called Shinsei Bank, which means "New Life". Poetic bank names were very popular in the 1990s in Japan.) Now there was a brand-new fully-capitalized bank without all the bad-loan difficulties of the other major banks. Plus, this brand-new bank had (supposedly) best-quality management, namely those New York sharpies who were going to show us all the most sophisticated pratices in the financial industry. This new bank would then make all the loans that the other banks "couldn't" make, because they were capital impaired. With more loans, the economy would recover.

Right?

Wrong. Actually, at the time, there was very little demand for borrowing, because of the poor economy. The poor economy was caused, in large part, by monetary instability in the form of horrible deflation, plus various tax hikes. Debt is very painful in a monetary deflation. Most of the healthier companies had all the debt they wanted, and more, and didn't see many expansion opportunities (requiring more borrowing) in the environment of unstable money and high taxes. Most of the weaker companies nobody wanted to lend to, nor did they want to borrow either, as they were spending all their time trying to figure out ways to escape the burden of their past debts. In fact, the existing large banks were, at the time, searching very hard for good lending opportunities, from which they could make the profit to pay for their losses on their existing bad debts, and not finding many. All of this was represented in very low interest rates (high prices), for both government and good-quality corporate debt, which shows an excess of buyers (lenders) compared to sellers (borrowers).

So, what happened to Shinsei Bank? For the first couple years, it didn't do a thing. The lending market was, in fact, very competitive, and virtually all the demand for debt was satisfied at very good prices for the borrower (low interest rates), and rather poor terms for the lender (narrow net interest margin and low profitability). Later on, as the monetary issue was resolved (reflation), investment opportunities arose again, and both banks and borrowers got together to take advantage of them.

The New York sharpies still made out very well, however, mostly because of cushy terms given to them from the government. So, in the end, the real opportunity was not in the wonderful lending opportunities. The real opportunity was the chance to get a very cushy deal from the Japanese government. And how did they get this cushy deal? Because of the idea that there would be some wonderful lending boom and economic recovery if the government gave them a cushy deal.

That is one reason why we see these arguments again and again during these "bad debt" events. The economists at the big brokerage houses blah blah about it constantly. Some of the economists are aware of the scam (a little bit), but most are just useful idiots. At the end of the day, they act like amoebas that swim toward a source of sugar. (If they weren't idiots, they wouldn't be useful.) The useful idiots understand, at some limbic level, that if they talk the blah blah, they keep getting paid. The journalists pick up on it and magnify it. (Most journalists have an inferiority complex, making them unwilling to challenge anyone who makes more than they do, which is about everybody, and amount to badly paid useful idiots.) After years and years of this blah blah, the politicians relent.

Probably the scammers themselves (in this case the foreign investors) believe the story. Why not? They aren't economists either, but they can smell a good deal, and if they can also Play an Important Part in the Revival of the Japanese Financial System, well, that's fine too, and maybe they'll get an honorary degree or something out of it.

And who is pushing this idea today? Why, it's the economists of Goldman Sachs! I am soooo surprised!

$2 trillion lending crunch seen Goldman Sachs economist says mounting credit losses could force banks to significantly scale back their lending.​

The money multiplier is a (Keynesian) mathematical equation meant to model the effects of banking and central banking on the economy. It's based on the philosophy that you can model the economy like a machine, and is basically about the extent to which a bank can have an impact on macroeconomic performance (in either direction), and hence justification for helping banks out with their "bad debt" problems -- shrinking capital base -> less loans -> economic slowdown -> gimme cash now!

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, the banks are more than that, and in fact are more than something that simply borrows and lends at different rates contrary to what Lewis is trying to imply.

But it's the same thing, no? The difference between the interest paid to depositors and the interest paid by borrowers is the bank's margin. It's multiplying money in the same sense that any other business multiplies money:

"If I borrow this money, then I can invest in an asset (or business) that, over time, will produce an effective return on capital greater than the rate of interest on the debt, and I'll make a profit."​
 

vimothy

yurp
Lehman look ok: Lehman Net Income Declines 57%, Less Than Estimated

Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., the fourth-biggest U.S. securities firm, reported earnings that beat analysts' estimates, easing concern that losses from the mortgage market are eroding its capital.

Lehman surged 18 percent in New York trading after falling a record 19 percent yesterday. First-quarter net income declined 57 percent to $489 million, or 81 cents a share, the New York-based company said in a statement today. Analysts had estimated Lehman would earn 72 cents a share.​

MF Global don't look so hot, though:

Think about it - 75 per cent. A firm that was worth $3.6bn at the end of February, was worth $2bn on Friday and then $600m on Monday. Without any news…​
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"The difference between the interest paid to depositors and the interest paid by borrowers is the bank's margin. It's multiplying money in the same sense that any other business multiplies money:"
Well, I agree with the first bit, the funny thing is that the same bit of money goes into and out of the bank a number of times and they earn interest with each cycle. I don't think I'm disagreeing with you as such, I'm just saying that a bank that had a £100 (which in the first example you could imagine as the only money in the world) in deposits has leant £900, there is some sense in which it can be seen to have multiplied money, I don't think I'm subscribing to any particular theory there am I, I'm just describing what's happened.

"Thus, if banks have capital, then they create loans according to some sort of inevitable mechanical multiplication function, and if they don't have capital then loans shrink by the same inevitable mechanical multiplication function."
I'm certainly not saying this for example (except in as much as the loans cannot legally exceed the ratio laid down by the central bank/government which is a limit that he recognises earlier on in his piece).
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
I wasn't very impressed with that piece. Of course capital drives lending. And anyone who thinks that everyone who wanted to borrow money during the credit crunch in Japan was able to is just wrong.

Anyway... who else is waiting for a buying opportunity? I made a heap out of the last dip.
 

vimothy

yurp
Well, I agree with the first bit, the funny thing is that the same bit of money goes into and out of the bank a number of times and they earn interest with each cycle. I don't think I'm disagreeing with you as such, I'm just saying that a bank that had a £100 (which in the first example you could imagine as the only money in the world) in deposits has leant £900, there is some sense in which it can be seen to have multiplied money, I don't think I'm subscribing to any particular theory there am I, I'm just describing what's happened.

That's why it seems like you're both agreeing in essence but disagreeing in terms of semantics. Lewis isn't down with the "money multiplier" thing because of the associated Keynesian economics-as-thermodynamics baggage, which he naturally sees through (it's part of his whole shtick), but he obviously recognises that banks are small piles of equity, and much bigger piles of debts and loans.

Rich, do you know what happens to a bank's balance sheet when it declares bankruptcy? Do its assets basically get sold for cheap to pay off a hierarchy of creditors and shareholders? Do you know what order that hierarchy runs (depositors, shareholders, etc)?
 

vimothy

yurp
I wasn't very impressed with that piece. Of course capital drives lending.

Well, that's good news for the banks, then.

Why do you think that capital drives lending and not wider economic forces? Surely it doesn't really matter how much capital a bank has (assuming its over the BIS asset:capital ratio), as long as it can continue to borrow and lend.

And anyone who thinks that everyone who wanted to borrow money during the credit crunch in Japan was able to is just wrong.

I don't think he is saying that anyone who wanted to borrow money could, but that there were few good lending opportunities.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Anyway... who else is waiting for a buying opportunity? I made a heap out of the last dip."
Ha - I haven't got any money to invest.

"That's why it seems like you're both agreeing in essence but disagreeing in terms of semantics."
Agreed.

"Rich, do you know what happens to a bank's balance sheet when it declares bankruptcy? Do its assets basically get sold for cheap to pay off a hierarchy of creditors and shareholders?"
As far as I know, that's what happens.

"Do you know what order that hierarchy runs"
I dunno, can try and find out though. Administrators first usually, then... I really can't remember.
 

vimothy

yurp
I dunno, can try and find out though. Administrators first usually, then... I really can't remember.

I'm just wondering what would have happened if Bear Stearns had gone bankrupt, who would have got paid, who would have lost out. I'm guessing that the shareholders are pissed because they think the book value is a lot higher than $2 a share (or whatever it is) would suggest, but that the Fed doesn't really give a toss about them and is looking out for depositors. My intiuition then is that the shareholders would prefer bankruptcy...? Or just hanging on for dear life in the hope it will get better...?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
One of the articles you linked to yesterday had one of the shareholders' representatives demanding to be told "why this deal is better than chapter x bankruptcy?" - unfortunately I can't find the article now or remember which chapter it was. If that could be found then we would be able to get more of the specifics.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Anyway... who else is waiting for a buying opportunity? I made a heap out of the last dip.

Not a heap, but I did stick £1500 in a FTSE tracker which earned about £1000 in 4 years. The thought crossed my mind, but think I'm quitting while ahead.

Edit: Um, given the nature of Dissensus, I'd like to make clear i've now made full discslosure of my shareholding history on this one thread.
 
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swears

preppy-kei
Anyway... who else is waiting for a buying opportunity? I made a heap out of the last dip.

Isn't this what keeps the market from falling through the floor completely? (for now, anyway)
Everytime they fall, they rally again later, 'cause everyone scrambles for a bargain. Does this look likely to continue, or will people simply run out of credit/stop seeing any long term value in those shares?
 

vimothy

yurp
Nouriel Roubini at RGE Monitor:

Since the onset of the liquidity and credit crunch last summer this column has been arguing that monetary policy would be impotent to address such a crunch because, in part, of the existence of a non-bank "shadow financial system"... conduits, SIVs, investment banks/broker dealers, money market funds, hedge funds and other non bank financial institutions... highly leveraged and borrow short and in liquid ways and invest or lend long and in illiquid ways... subject not only to credit and market risk but also to rollover or liquidity risk....

Unlike banks this shadow financial system does not have access to the lender of last resort support of the central bank as these are not depository institutions regulated by the central banks. What we are now observing... is a generalized liquidity run on this shadow financial system.

The response of the Fed to this run has been radical... lender of last resort support to non bank financial institutions... $200 bn term facility allows primary dealers... to swap their toxic mortgage backed securities for US Treasuries... Bear Stearns... JPMorgan... now the Fed is allowing primary dealers to access the Fed discount window at the same terms as banks.

This is the most radical change and expansions of Fed powers and functions since the Great Depression: essentially the Fed now can lend unlimited amounts to non bank highly leveraged institutions that it does not regulate.... t is treating this crisis... as if it was purely a liquidity crisis. By lending massive amounts to potentially insolvent institutions that it does not supervise or regulate and that may be insolvent the Fed is taking serious financial risks and seriously exacerbate moral hazard distortions.... But this is not just a liquidity crisis; it is rather a credit and insolvency crisis. And it is not the job of the Fed to bail out insolvent non bank financial institutions. If a bail out should occur this is a fiscal policy action that should be decided by Congress after the relevant equity holders have been wiped out and senior management fired without golden parachutes and huge severance packages...
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"essentially the Fed now can lend unlimited amounts to non bank highly leveraged institutions that it does not regulate"
This is another of those situations where companies cry foul at the idea of any legislation to control them ("it's only for high net worth/sophisticated investors, we should be able to do what we want") but suddenly when things go wrong they want the advantages that come with regulation.

"Isn't this what keeps the market from falling through the floor completely? (for now, anyway)
Everytime they fall, they rally again later, 'cause everyone scrambles for a bargain"
Not sure about this, I mean, if you look at the value of a particular security and think that the only thing that is propping it up is a few chancers after a bargain then why not sell it short rather than buy it and hope that it has a shortlived rally? What I'm saying is, if you can think that why can't everyone else?
 
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