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Thread: The Wire is over - discussion, spoilers inside

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomadologist View Post
    Why don't you give it a rest? Snoop was obviously not too concerned about "gendering" herself female. There's tons of lesbian relationship dynamics in the show, and though I don't remember them ever getting into Snoop's sexuality, it seems safe to say that her performance was rather butch.

    People say "girl" after every and anything, the word "girl" is not exactly the operative word here.

    This is what happens when people have NO IDEA about the slang they're listening to and its actual connotations.
    lol, and this is what happens when you cross multiple neuroses with extreme self importance

    I'm struggling to think of any other time anyone referred to Snoop as 'girl', operative word or not.. maybe Marlo did once or twice.. and to just dismiss something like that in one of the most crucial scenes in the entire show I think is a mistake. I've been watching season 4 again recently and people are certainly not saying 'girl' after everything and anything to Snoop. She's not normal, and nor is the way people address her - the fact that she wasn't concerned with 'gendering' herself is stating the obvious, and it's the only reason her behaviour in that final scene is worth commenting on. I think there's enough of a grey area there anyway for it to have been an interesting observation (it wasn't even my observation come to that, I just thought it was a comment worth replicating here), and I think I have a right to be a bit annoyed when people start flinging around accusations of mysogeny.

    Possible lesbianism is interesting, but again at least as unfounded as anything I said. But I suppose that kind of observation is safe to make around you guys, as it's about subversion - there's some nice intellectual reverse snobbery going on here I feel; if a role is reversed or subverted it's cool, but if something reinforces traditional societal roles it becomes offensive. It seems to be as though the only way to be safe from these kind of accusations is to live in some make believe world where gender is non-existent and irrelevant, but I don't believe either of those are true. Whether you like it or not Snoop's involvement in an aspect of that world which is so obviously dominated not only by males but by caricatures of the dominant, aggressive male, is interesting, just because it's so unusual. Of course her performance was butch, but then that could just be a reaction to an environment in which that was absolutely necessary. The dynamic between her and Chris through seasons 4 and 5 was very subtley played out and could be read in a number of different ways as well.

    None of it's simple, all of our observations are unfounded (we're talking about fiction here remember, even if it is 'the most accurate cop show on tv' or whatever), and I'm not a sexist.

    So there :P
    Last edited by UFO over easy; 24-03-2008 at 05:17 PM.

  2. #17
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    As a lurker of sorts, I've been reading this thread and wanting to write something--enough to register. Anyhow, thanks for saying a lot of what I wanted to say.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO over easy View Post
    lol, and this is what happens when you cross multiple neuroses with extreme self importance

    I'm struggling to think of any other time anyone referred to Snoop as 'girl', operative word or not.. maybe Marlo did once or twice.. and to just dismiss something like that in one of the most crucial scenes in the entire show I think is a mistake. I've been watching season 4 again recently and people are certainly not saying 'girl' after everything and anything to Snoop. She's not normal, and nor is the way people address her - the fact that she wasn't concerned with 'gendering' herself is stating the obvious, and it's the only reason her behaviour in that final scene is worth commenting on. I think there's enough of a grey area there anyway for it to have been an interesting observation (it wasn't even my observation come to that, I just thought it was a comment worth replicating here), and I think I have a right to be a bit annoyed when people start flinging around accusations of mysogeny.

    Possible lesbianism is interesting, but again at least as unfounded as anything I said. But I suppose that kind of observation is safe to make around you guys, as it's about subversion - there's some nice intellectual reverse snobbery going on here I feel; if a role is reversed or subverted it's cool, but if something reinforces traditional societal roles it becomes offensive. It seems to be as though the only way to be safe from these kind of accusations is to live in some make believe world where gender is non-existent and irrelevant, but I don't believe either of those are true. Whether you like it or not Snoop's involvement in an aspect of that world which is so obviously dominated not only by males but by caricatures of the dominant, aggressive male, is interesting, just because it's so unusual. Of course her performance was butch, but then that could just be a reaction to an environment in which that was absolutely necessary. The dynamic between her and Chris through seasons 4 and 5 was very subtley played out and could be read in a number of different ways as well.

    None of it's simple, all of our observations are unfounded (we're talking about fiction here remember, even if it is 'the most accurate cop show on tv' or whatever), and I'm not a sexist.

    So there :P

    yeah well said.

    nice video of snoop here...

    has anyone read her book yet? i work in a bookshop and ordered 25 copies (!) a few weeks ago.. still haven't sold any yet..

  4. #19
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    I worked in a bookshop for a while as well benjy! lovely little independant type jobby, was great you got a link to her book? i'm lazy

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO over easy View Post
    I worked in a bookshop for a while as well benjy! lovely little independant type jobby, was great you got a link to her book? i'm lazy
    unfortunately i work in the biggest bookshop in europe so it's not so lovely and independent! although it does mean i can sit in a cupboard for an hour and no-one notices...

    here's the book... i flicked through it at work.. looks pretty heavy-going. well worth a read tho.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Grace-After-...6404784&sr=8-2

  6. #21
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    i have a friend who's going out with someone in the wire which is just weird.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mms View Post
    i have a friend who's going out with someone in the wire which is just weird.
    police or gangster? this is extremely important!

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mms View Post
    i have a friend who's going out with someone in the wire which is just weird.

    is it clay davis?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mms View Post
    i have a friend who's going out with someone in the wire which is just weird.
    who?!

    please let it be prop joe...

    actually it's probably cool lester smooth.. he lived in london for ages innit? (AND HE WROTE 5 GUYS NAMED MOE!)

  10. #25
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    or is it rawls?

  11. #26
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    i'm keeping it under the radar yo

  12. #27
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    Ok, here is where the fact that slang doesn't translate becomes ever more obvious.

    In American slang, using "girl" "boy" "son" "man" "dude"--it's all the same, and it's used ALL the TIME in much the same way "like" is used, as a flavoring particle that is used to personalize speech, as a casual way of referring to someone.

    Somewhat like "mami" or "papi" is used in Puerto Rican Spanish.

    The addition of the word "girl" to that sentence is NOT a reference to her femininity, which I can state emphatically and without ambivalence based on the fact that I know and use American slang and it is completely natural to me. I understand it.

    What "girl" in the context of the of the discussion in question actually signified was the intimacy between the two characters even as he was about to kill Snoop. It would be like saying "Don't hate me for this, baby" before killing your boyfriend or girlfriend.

    The Snoop assasination scene was about how in a "dog eat dog" world like the ghetto you can't even be too angry with your best friend for stabbing you in the back, quite literally, or in this case shooting you in the head.

    In the end, I probably agree with you: considerations of queerness can be completely left out of the discussion, along with discussions of "femininity", because neither have anything to do with the pathos of that scene.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mms View Post
    i have a friend who's going out with someone in the wire which is just weird.
    yeah my boyfriend's good friend's dad is also in the wire--frankie faison. maybe they know one another.

  14. #29
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    There's no need to resort to epistemic privilege here. It's about interpreting the scene. I think an argument can be made either way. That's what's interesting about the scene--and the show, frankly. It opens itself up to multiple readings...

    p.s. I know and use American slang too--and I disagree with your explanation. But that doesn't make your reading wrong.

  15. #30
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    From Wikipedia:

    Pearson was born premature to two drug-addicted and incarcerated parents and reared in an East Baltimore foster home. Hours old and about 3 pounds, doctors didn't expect her to live. She was so small she was fed with an eyedropper until she grew stronger. Days went by and she continued to survive, so Snoop was made a ward of the court and reared in an East Baltimore foster home. While other 12-year-olds were in school, Snoop was learning the drug game. At 14, Snoop was sentenced to 8 years in prison for the second degree murder of Okia Toomer. She said her life turned around at 18, when a man she called Uncle Loney, a local drug dealer who looked out for her and sent her money in prison, was shot and killed. It was he who had given her the nickname "Snoop" because she reminded him of Charlie Brown’s favorite beagle Snoopy in the comic strip Peanuts. She finished school while behind bars. After earning her GED in prison, Pearson was released in 2000. She landed a local job making car bumpers, she said, but was fired two weeks later after her employer learned she had a prison record.

    Pearson is openly gay.
    She met the producers and writers of the Wire through the man who plays Omar, and they cast her for obvious reasons--she wouldn't need to go too far into method acting to get into her character. I think it's implied that she is a lesbian but not dwelled on because sexual orientation is largely irrelevant, although gendering oneself "male" is awfully helpful in a hierarchical, male-dominated business. The question remains whether this is necessary only insofar as it is a survival mechanism, or rather a set of biologically mandated preferences. Personally, I tend to think sexual preference is just that, the latter.

    You could have an interesting discussion weighing the two options.

    I prefer not to toss around words like "femininity" without qualification. To me it does sound sexist to refer to some fantom notion of what *true* femininity is--especially when that entails the same old cliched bullshit like "how do I look?" The implication when you conflate Snoop's interest in looking her best with femininity is that you believe in "femininity" in a traditional sense. Maybe you don't. But it sounded like you did, to me.

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