Darkside Dalai / Darkside Tibet

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zhao

there are no accidents
michael said:
I remember in one of John Ralston Saul's books he absolutely lays into Tibetan buddhist monks, dismissing them as something akin to court jesters (or most charitably courtiers) of the previous ruling class. Says of course they're petitioning for a return to what they had because they had a lovely, powerful position. Never followed up on it, but it obviously stuck somewhere in by memory. Think it's in Voltaire's Bastards.
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yes there are many extremely harsh critics of Tibetan Buddhism. there are counts of sexual abuse not unlike those of the Catholic church; there are counts of major corruption; there are many examples of serious human rights violations under the theocracy of the monks.

one scholar even went so far as to say Tibetan Buddhism to Buddhism at large is "like what Aleister Crowley is to Christianity".

the articles quote a couple who were many years among the most devout of Dalai Lama followers, but subsequently became his sharpest critics after having seen what goes on in the inner circles of the elite.

power corrupts, and it would seem that Tibetan Monks are not immune to it.

understandable but still troubling that most people do not want to face or even discuss this...
 
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polystyle

Well-known member
Gotcha Zhao
And I think in general, we are making different points.
Please do explore the as you call 'darkside' of the Dalai Lama, and find the answers you seek.
There is obviously a huge difference between Tibetan Buddhism and other Buddhism,
different threads along it's journey from India East across China , Korea and into Japan.
So it always has been, and continues on some places.
For myself, I am not 'Buddhist' or anything, but have found useful things in zen, meditation along the way for personal 'toolkit'.
Sounds like you want to build yours too >
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
oh dear. me and vim more or less standing on common ground.

surely the end is nearer than anyone thinks...
 
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Numbers

Well-known member
zhao said:
power corrupts, and it would seem that Tibetan Monks are not immune to it.
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They're not immune at all. On the contrary: whilst staying at a Buddhist monastery (Sri Lanka), I've seen on several occasions behaviour that would probably make a catholic priest blush. Their hold on the community is simply baffling.
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
zhao said:
oh dear. me and vim more or less standing on common ground.

surely the end is nearer than anyone thinks...
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actually on second thought probably a sign of hope if anything... (cue give peace a chance)
 
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polystyle

Well-known member
Zhao in my earlier responses I admit feeling there was a bit of a Gotcha game going on !
Combined with being defensive about the ol' Dalai Lama himself
(he had been sick, says himself he may be the last Dalai Lama) after having met him as well
at a Himalayan Club function ( a mostly climbers thing ),
I went on making one point while you made another ...:(

Yesterday while doing a round of spring cleaning , I found a front page of the South China Morning Post from last trip to Hong Kong before the changeover, Jan. '96.
"Evil face of Thai Buddhism" the headline.
The horribly sad story of what happened to 23 year old British backpacker Johanne Masheder
while going to visit Khao Poon Temple above Kanchanaburi.
Murdered by novice monk Yodchart Suapoo , amphetamine addict who became a monk after serving in prison for rape.
In a country where '95 %' of Thai practice Buddhism , and with some 200,000 monks,
criticising the Buddhist clergy was to reap bad karma.
But a whole run of Thai have been exposed, arrested, one hides in San Francisco.
The case of Johanne Masheder was particularly disturbing as just a few days before this same monk addict had tried to do someone else.
She then wrote to the Bangkok Post in warning but nothing was done in time to save Masheder from her fateful meeting with Suapoo.
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
last week i met with a friend who was a "Tibetologist" for 20+ years, who has traveled there on many occasions, have had significant interaction with Tibetan people and monks, interviewed Dalai on many occasions, organized conferences on Tibet, who rightfully claim inside knowledge, assures me that there is not merely 2 sides to the coin, but it's more like a tetrahedral die (like those used in role playing games). so, a brief run down of things glimpsed from this man's knowledge:

• Tibet was itself headed toward the direction of modernization around the time the Chinese invaded in the 1950s. but no one can say how that would have went with the conflicts that would have surely arisen.

• Chinese certainly did build infrastructure during occupation, but not with Tibetans in mind -- for its own ends of establishing trade route.

• many Tibetans did welcome the Chinese as agents of change, but after 10 years life did not get better for them under Chinese rule, and in some cases, even worse -- Tibetans, just like the Chinese people themselves, were subject to many of the disastrous policies of the CCP.

• it was not until much later, 1970s or 80s, when Chinese efforts in Tibet yielded some positive results, and the lives of Tibetans became somewhat better than before.

• corruption certainly existed and exists in the theocracy of the monks, where inequality, injustice is common place, many recorded accounts of bribery, abuse of power, sexual abuse, etc.

• many attempts have been made in recent history to address the gap between western perception and realities in Tibet, such as many conferences with leading scholars which were well attended, and best selling books on the subject, but nothing seems to fundamentally shake the false conviction of most who simply WANT to believe in a mythical paradisal Shangri La, even when confronted with irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

• India never had a problem with border until Chinese took over - since then they have had to pour a ton of money into defense, almost bankrupting them.

• in current events it is very stupid for the Chinese government to blame the Dalai for instigating anti-China protests, for he acts more than anything else as a mediator and peace keeper, without whom the anti-China sentiments would become more heated.
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what conclusion can possibly be draw from all of these disparate facts? the answer is i have NO IDEA.
 
D

droid

Guest
Heres a simple question:

Do you support national self determination - that is, the idea that those who live in a country or region have the right to decide on their own future free from outside interference?

If the answer is yes in relation to Europe, the middle East or wherever, then its yes for everywhere.
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
thanks for cutting through all the butter with a hot knife there Droid...

i guess on some level it is as simple as that.

my answer is of course yes.

the chinese should get the fuck out (not happening anytime soon though)

but also the world needs to stop projecting it's own spiritual privation on this country full of poor folks who have been suffering for way too long.
 
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comelately

Wild Horses
I attended a few meditation classes with the New Kadampa Tradition (http://www.meditateinlondon.org.uk/) and received an empowerment (Yoga of Vajrapani). I became a bit concerned that it was a bit culty and I was at a low ebb at the time so I decided to leave them alone. Interestingly, they do not really recognise the Dalai Lama and stand in firm opposition to him on the matter of Dorje Shugden, Dharma Protector.

Dorje Shugden is pretty central to the practice of many Buddhists in Tibet, but the current Dalai Lama has ordered people to cease these practices. Interesting section contained within the entry for "(Geshe) Kelsang Gyatso" on WikiP:

The Dalai Lama claims that Dorje Shugden is in discord with government approved protectors. "Whether outside of Tibet or within it, a deity in discord with [government deities] whose relationship with the origin of this [exile] government at the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama [is discordant] whatever may be the ultimate reality this is serious in the context of the common cause of Tibet. Therefore, unless I remind you once again there are those who pretend they have not heard it. It will be the last resort if [we] have to knock on [their/your] doors. It would be good if [they/you] can heed this without [us] having to resort to this last step."

It should be noted that for a Tibetan this is very strong language. The phrase "it would be good, if..." is culturally understood to be an order with a strong warning of very serious consequences if not followed.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelsang_Gyatso
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
the idea that those who live in a country or region have the right to decide on their own future free from outside interference?
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waht about situation like nz/aus/usa/canada and one day tibet where a whole load of nwe people have come and they have different want and need and so make different decision?
 
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