Darkside Dalai / Darkside Tibet

Z

zhao

there are no accidents
many here know that i have a personal relationship with Tibetan teachings and ideas and much love and respect for the amazing bodies of knowledge to be found in spiritual traditions in that culture. The Dalai Lama is a great spirit, a great man and a great leader, who has given the world much wonderful things, and have done much good for his people and people of the world.

but there is another side. a seriously disturbing and deeply problematic one. a side that is rarely talked about.

following are 3 episodes from a radio program called For The Record which deals with fascism in all its manifestations (and in the past has focused on fascist elements within Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, Zionism, etc )-- google the author -- i have no doubt that this information is reliable. (there are many other fascinating episodes if you wish to explore further)

there are surely many ways to view this material, but one thing which is for sure is i believe it is very important to consider this information, especially in these times. it is also important to point out here that it does NOT follow that i support the Chinese government or the Communist Party (actually quite the opposite).

the main questions i have after absorbing some of this is: what would it mean for Tibetans to "Free Tibet"? what would complete Tibet independence mean for the lives of its citizens? would it mean a plunge back into the dark-ages? abject poverty with no hope of anything better? a back-wards and brutal theocracy which enslaves the citizens? a country with almost zero infrastructure, very poor sanitation and health care? how to weigh the benefits brought to the people and efforts to modernize and build infrastructure in Tibet by the Chinese against their oppressive rule and human rights violations? for there are certainly 2 sides to the coin, unlike mainstream western media would like us to believe.

also, what about the Lama and his regime? what position to take in light of his shady (to say the least) dealings? should i simply take what is good for myself and ignore the rest? or... or what?

would be very much interested to hear if anyone knows more and how you look at it.

real audio streaming available on the pages, which are linked to from the chapter titles.

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Hell-o Dalai

This program begins a lengthy examination of the Dalai Lama’s association with a covert-action milieu, much of it fascist and associated with the Underground Reich. In addition to the Dalai Lama’s collaboration with Islamist and secular Pan-Turkist separatist elements in Xinjiang province of China, the Nobel Peace Prize winner has maintained close connections over a period of decades with SS officers, some of them war criminals.
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Addressing a cognitive consideration central to grasping the enormous gap between the public perception of the Dalai Lama and the unsavory reality of his political connections and religious practices
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Introducing the subject of the Nazi SS’s fascination with Tibet and its exploration of that country, the program presents an account of the 1938 SS expedition to Lhasa.
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Tibet or not Tibet

Tibet was anything but the earthly paradise the Dalai Lama and his associates claim that it was. In point of fact, Tibet was a brutal, theocratic feudal society, presided over by the Dalai Lama and other Tibetan Buddhist prelates. Much of the population were serfs—actually little more than slaves. They had no rights to speak of, and were bound to the land owned by the religious leaders. Even the smallest of offenses was punished with extreme brutality—grisly torture was routine.
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The Pan-Turkist Movement, the Underground Reich and the Earth Island

Further analyzing the fascist covert action structure to which the Dalai Lama and his milieu belong, the broadcast explores the Pan-Turkist movement. Born after the First World War, this movement sought to restore the lost “glory” of the Ottoman Empire by uniting the large number of Turks outside of Turkey proper into a “Greater Turkestan.” Many of these “Outside Turks” were in the former Soviet Union. For this reason, the Pan-Turkists have historically allied with anti-communist networks, including those maintained by Nazi Germany and the institutions that absorbed the residua of the Third Reich’s intelligence system.
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Z

zhao

there are no accidents
noel emits said:
Rigorous Intuition
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oh wow......................

ruysch_01.jpg
 
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vimothy

vimothy

yurp
zhao said:
anyone care to elaborate or offer up view points?
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I'm actually pretty impressed with your post. It's annoying that activists call for a "free Tibet" without ever seeming to consider what that means. I don't think that Tibetans are necessarily worse off as a part of China than they would be as feudal peasants under the Dalai Lama. Well said.

Yep:

Tibet was anything but the earthly paradise the Dalai Lama and his associates claim that it was. In point of fact, Tibet was a brutal, theocratic feudal society, presided over by the Dalai Lama and other Tibetan Buddhist prelates. Much of the population were serfs—actually little more than slaves. They had no rights to speak of, and were bound to the land owned by the religious leaders. Even the smallest of offenses was punished with extreme brutality—grisly torture was routine.​
 
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noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
zhao, what is it about Tibetan Buddhism specifically that lends itself to appropriation by Nazis do you think?

By the way, and perhaps not surprisingly, doing a search for further stuff on this can among other things bring up sites whose authors would seem to have evangelical Christian leanings.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
vimothy said:
The Nazis were well into their new age crap, though (Savitri Devi, Julius Evola, etc) -- right?
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...Germanic Neopaganism (obviously), Odalism, Ariosophy, Theosophy, Gnosticism, the Atlantis myth, Grail legend...Nazi mysticism/occultism was pretty much a trash compactor for gobbledegook.
 
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polystyle

Well-known member
Zhao, will have to get bk to you later today on your questions , they are good 'uns.
The light goes wit the dark, yin yang , 360 pov's ...
Have spent good amount of time with Tibetans, Nepalese ( Maoists victory anyone ?) and looking over the border into Tibet some years bk ...

Some of the Nazi - Tibet thing was touched on on the 'were did ufo's go ? thread awhile bk
Gotta run
Cheers
 
P

polystyle

Well-known member
To note: Sorry but have not had time to listen to the 'casts, but simply wanted to try giving some replies Zhao, typing one handed over morning coffee and with "Ancient Tibet" balanced on lap,

zhao said:
the main questions i have after absorbing some of this is: what would it mean for Tibetans to "Free Tibet"?
To be free to practice Buddhism without active malice ,
active policy of kidnapping of the next reincarnated Lamas by the CCP and so and on.
CCP hates 'religion' , Buddhists call their faith simply a 'belief system' in that it doesn't revere 'Gods' - but that didn't convince Mao back in the late '50's.
And (2 cents) ... to walk their formerly own towns and cities without all the broken green (Chinese) beer bottle glass under foot , without soldiers hanging around harassing at will , taking bribes and machinegunning wildlife out in the countryside when they are bored but still have a big gun in their hand.
To live in their towns and cities without a Chinese brothel 'around every corner' -with Tibetan woman working inside.
To perhaps have Potala Palace and Jokang Temple revert to their former status in Lhasa by razing the crass 'Amusement Park' that has been build in front of Potala.

What would complete Tibet independence mean for the lives of its citizens?

Well, for one it will never happen, but to go along and try replying >
They would have their national and personal pride back .
Wouldn't have some the CCP blaring music and propaganda wakeup every AM and daily.
It could also set example or give chance for the the original inhabitants of Western China ,
the Uyghurs to live as they saw fit in their ancestral land too.
Ditto Mongolians. Who recently turned back a plan to make a them park around Ghengis tomb area - turned it back for the moment 2007 at least.

Would it mean a plunge back into the dark-ages?

Let's think about that for a moment ... is that possible ?
And which Dark Ages ? the one started when the CCP marched in and took over -
when 'Tibetan Empire' ended (Middle of 9th Century) -
after the Dharma came to Tibet - (7th Century ?)
time of the first Kings : gNyaa'-khri in Yarlung , the Seven Thrones or back to
the time of the tribes called by Chinese the Ch'iang (approx. 1500 BC , around Koko Nor ) -
the early Tibet plateau land known variously Bod-kha-nya-drug ,
Bod-khams-gling-dgu ( Nine Lands Of Bod-Khams) or
Dem-po-tse or sTong-sde-bco-brgyad
(eighteen divisions of the sTong clan) the time the 'clever but savage' 'gong-po' or 'enchanters' ('5500-1000 BC') ... ?

It took ages to bring tribes into a confederation ,
for Buddhism to take over from Bon , the original animist belief system.
If they like to drink yak tea, burn yak dung and live nomadic so it had been for ages.
Imagine being told / forced to go from living out in the country , moving from place to place following your food and seasons to living all together in rough concrete 'towns' ,
thrown together in crowded holding pen cities built by 'benefactors' (of course, as repeated worldwide with respect to original native peoples).

Abject poverty with no hope of anything better? a back-wards and brutal theocracy which enslaves the citizens? a country with almost zero infrastructure, very poor sanitation and health care?

Go back far enough and every early civilization had these modes,
true that Tibet stayed 'primative' for a looong time.
Living in a land locked, isolated and ever drying land made it especially hard for Tibetans, as well as the Sogdians of what became known as Western China.
Present day Tibet and Western China continue to dry.
The above description could be used for any number of original peoples around the world.

Second question well describes both Christian ages and the 'modern' CCP.
And reminds me of meeting the little boy Maoist in Khumbu high Himal 2000 after crossing a river on rocks downstream from an unusable ruined bridge.
My Sherpa friend and I could understand him asking for money to fix the bridge.
But seeing Older Brother half hiding in the shadows of the shop behind him,
Gyalzen stiffened turned and advised refusing to pay anything.
When Older Brother came out into the light strapped with a machine gun ,
we did both resist paying out.

How to weigh the benefits brought to the people and efforts to modernize and build infrastructure in Tibet by the Chinese against their oppressive rule and human rights violations? for there are certainly 2 sides to the coin, unlike mainstream western media would like us to believe.

I'm passing on this one . Got to do something else today besides this.

Also, what about the Lama and his regime? what position to take in light of his shady (to say the least) dealings? should i simply take what is good for myself and ignore the rest? or... or what?

A long story running that includes Dalai Lama's boyhood friend ol' "Seven Years In Tibet" Heinrich Harrier (not Brad Pitt) clambering his way across the Himal and up into the Potala
to the Nazi looking for 'pure' ancient races to back their own BS ,
twisting the meaning of the Buddhist 'swastika' by reversing it ala the earlier Bon swastika -meaning in effect ' to end time' (an account I previously mangled in the 'Where did UFO's Go' thread )
to Bush 1's CIA backing then betraying the Tibetan Kham rebels
(Obv. a usual US policy pattern repeated over and over) -to present times.

The Nazi were after what has been called The Great White Brotherhood / The Thirteenth School , a race of um, exceptional Masters superior beings who retreated from the world to ...
Shangrila / Shamballa.
Probably Shang Shung , ancient Guge Kingdom close to Mt Kailas in
W Tibet that used to be a bit greener, livable and the connection West into Ladakh.
White Brotherhood ? 'White' as in versus the 'occult' black shamans who could 'kill at a distance' (not Northern Europe black metalizers -yet)

Quite complex , dependent on accounts of others , filled with dramatic light and darks
= yin and yang . Past, present , future all at once.
We lose alot when we lose sight of the past , maybe especially the farthest distant past.
What to do ? think you know the 'answer' here Zhao , do please take what you can use and leave the rest - ala sorting through everyday life in Berlin , NYC , Londinium
Cheers , Peace , Namaste :cool:
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N

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
That's a massive post polystyle and I don't want to get in it's way or diminish it's impact in any way but I'm really surprised that these two comments have been let go:
vimothy said:
The Nazis were well into their new age crap, though (Savitri Devi, Julius Evola, etc) -- right?
Click to expand...
Mr. Tea said:
...Germanic Neopaganism (obviously), Odalism, Ariosophy, Theosophy, Gnosticism, the Atlantis myth, Grail legend...Nazi mysticism/occultism was pretty much a trash compactor for gobbledegook.
Click to expand...

I fully expect to hear the sound of hordes of jackbooted Vajrayana Tantrists approaching from yonder vale to kick Messrs Vim and Tea in the Goolie Chakras for describing their spiritual traditions as 'new age crap' and 'gobbledegook'. ;)

More pertinently, this does not answer my question!
 
N

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
polystyle desu said:
A long story running that includes Dalai Lama's boyhood friend ol' "Seven Years In Tibet" Heinrich Harrier (not Brad Pitt) clambering his way across the Himal and up into the Potala
to the Nazi looking for 'pure' ancient races to back their own BS ,
twisting the meaning of the Buddhist 'swastika' by reversing it ala the earlier Bon swastika -meaning in effect ' to end time' (an account I previously mangled in the 'Where did UFO's Go' thread )
to Bush 1's CIA backing then betraying the Tibetan Kham rebels
(Obv. a usual US policy pattern repeated over and over) -to present times.

The Nazi were after what has been called The Great White Brotherhood / The Thirteenth School , a race of um, exceptional Masters superior beings who retreated from the world to ...
Shangrila / Shamballa.
Probably Shang Shung , ancient Guge Kingdom close to Mt Kailas in
W Tibet that used to be a bit greener, livable and the connection West into Ladakh.
White Brotherhood ? 'White' as in versus the 'occult' black shamans who could 'kill at a distance' (not Northern Europe black metalizers -yet)
Click to expand...
Wow yes, this is what I was looking for. Thank you - will give it more thought later.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
noel emits said:
I fully expect to hear the sound of hordes of jackbooted Vajrayana Tantrists approaching from yonder vale to kick Messrs Vim and Tea in the Goolie Chakras for describing their spiritual traditions as 'new age crap' and 'gobbledegook'. ;)
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In the immortal words of Dead Kennedys/Napalm Death, Nazi Buddhists, Fuck Off!
 
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polystyle

Well-known member
Well hopefully Buddhists that are not 'Nazi Buddhists' are ok in the DK's/ ND's book ?
 
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Z

zhao

there are no accidents
thanks polystyle. valuable and heart warming to read first person accounts.

a few issues:

the main questions i have after absorbing some of this is: what would it mean for Tibetans to "Free Tibet"?
To be free to practice Buddhism without active malice
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as much as i immensely value a drastically different perspective from the way I was raised, because i do believe that there are amazing and unspeakable truths, understandings, and experiences to behold that is uniquely fruit of a spiritual practice such as Tibetan Buddhism --- i also value a worldliness and a well rounded education. and this second part has been but entirely deprived of Tibetans.

a friend of mine said "we should ask Tibetans what they want - and all the ones there i have talked to said they want their Lamas" -- my reaction to this is of COURSE they do. because THAT IS THE ONLY THING THEY KNOW. and the theocratic rule of the Lamas would be perfect and beautiful and blissful and heavenly except... except i don't think it is, ever was, or will be. actually quite the contrary in many respects.

Would it mean a plunge back into the dark-ages?

Let's think about that for a moment ... is that possible ?
And which Dark Ages ? the one started when the CCP marched in and took over -
when 'Tibetan Empire' ended (Middle of 9th Century) -
after the Dharma came to Tibet - (7th Century ?)
Click to expand...

no. the Dark Ages before the Chinese came. an elite owned all of the land, and serfs who labored under them with not a penny to gain. not more than slaves with no freedom, owned by their masters. debt was passed down from generation to generation, and those who tried to run away were brutally beaten. yes, indeed, torture was common place - hands chopped off for stealing, tongues cut for lying, eyes gouged out for betrayal.

all of this is in the programs i posted... did you read or listen to them?

Abject poverty with no hope of anything better? a back-wards and brutal theocracy which enslaves the citizens? a country with almost zero infrastructure, very poor sanitation and health care?

Go back far enough and every early civilization had these modes,
true that Tibet stayed 'primative' for a looong time.
Living in a land locked, isolated and ever drying land made it especially hard for Tibetans, as well as the Sogdians of what became known as Western China.
Present day Tibet and Western China continue to dry.
The above description could be used for any number of original peoples around the world.
Click to expand...

a friend of mine visited Tibet 2 years ago - 2006. she described being invited to the home of a family to have dinner (in the style of famous customary conviviality), during the bitterly cold winter. and witnessed a family with black faces covered in soot -- because they burn a stove they to keep from freezing, and their house has no chimney -- the smoke fills the room, and the windows are much less than properly insulated. and to her ABSOLUTE HORROR she discovered that most houses of the poor are like this -- and that many develop respiratory problems and others die of lung cancer.

THIS IN 2006. and I'm sure not much has changed since.

NOT ACCEPTABLE BY ANY MEANS IN MY BOOK.

i need to do more research on the exact efforts to modernize and build infrastructure on the part of the Chinese since their take over. will report back.
 
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polystyle

Well-known member
Cheers Zhao
Well, you have to figure out your Tibet issues for yourself.

As I posted previously - No, I did not listen to those links .
Have no conflict about who has just about destroyed Tibet since Mao marched in.

Ok, a friend went in 2006 - ABSOLUTE HORROR ! shock ! dirty faces ! yes, sounds right, living inside smoke filled homes/ huts/ hovels perhaps .
Has been for ages , some out in the hinterlands or close in the cinderblock towns will undoubtedly continue to live dirty' ,
or free nomadic if they can still do so without getting shot.
You know the deal - the outsiders decide they will come in and 'modernize them dirty natives.
Let's run a train across the country so we can fill Tibet with Chinese people at an even faster rate then the last decades -
Hell, it's going to cost but the CCP knows it's a worthy nationalist effort.
To see the improved lives of smiling Tibetan shop keepers who can now sell Tibetan trinkets in er, Chinese tourists. Hey, they're making money now !
'Damn these ungrateful Tibetans - can't they see how we have improved their lives since we got here ? '

Zhao, while it seems you sincerely seem to be wondering about this stuff,
suggest you go and have a look see ...

Also curious, may i ask where your friend is from ?
 
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M

michael

Bring out the vacuum
A friend's living in Sichuan (Szechuan) province of China at the mo, and in a weird echo of what polystyle's saying sarcastically, he said the Tibetans he's met there are opportunistic, eager to make some cash, and saying they've only been able to do that since China swallowed up Tibet. Of course it's only a couple of people he's spoken to, they're travelling businesspeople, no culture's monolithic, etc. but it was interesting for me to hear.

I remember in one of John Ralston Saul's books he absolutely lays into Tibetan buddhist monks, dismissing them as something akin to court jesters (or most charitably courtiers) of the previous ruling class. Says of course they're petitioning for a return to what they had because they had a lovely, powerful position. Never followed up on it, but it obviously stuck somewhere in by memory. Think it's in Voltaire's Bastards.
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
polystyle desu said:
As I posted previously - No, I did not listen to those links .
Have no conflict about who has just about destroyed Tibet since Mao marched in.
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there is no one that hates the CCP more than i. everyone in my parent's genereation were traumatized by the persecutions of the cultural revolution... i feel the effects of the brutality and inhuman acts of those years immediately prior to my birth to this very day -- my family has been in many ways shattered by it, and has never healed.

so, with that in mind, Tibet.

i posted these links because they attempt to address a cognitive consideration central to grasping the enormous gap between the public perception of the Dalai Lama/Tibet and the frightening reality of both regime and nation.

if people have no interest in reviewing this information presumably because it might conflict with their previously held beliefs (ones arrived at from first hand experience or otherwise) that is of course their choice. but in that case i don't see how a fruitful discussion can ensue past the point of sharing said previous held beliefs. (of course, this does not need to happen. i was only just hoping, that's all.)

polystyle desu said:
the outsiders decide they will come in and 'modernize them dirty natives.
Let's run a train across the country so we can fill Tibet with Chinese people at an even faster rate then the last decades -
Hell, it's going to cost but the CCP knows it's a worthy nationalist effort.
To see the improved lives of smiling Tibetan shop keepers who can now sell Tibetan trinkets in er, Chinese tourists. Hey, they're making money now !
'Damn these ungrateful Tibetans - can't they see how we have improved their lives since we got here ? '
Click to expand...

sure those views are patronizing and condescending to the extreme, absolutely disgusting and reprehensible.

but on the other hand, is it not equally wrong to ignore slavery, torture, disease, and sub-human living standards -- all in the name of preserving an idealized and romanticized "pure" un-adulterated way of life (not necessarily you, but the west/rest of the world)?

polystyle desu said:
Zhao, while it seems you sincerely seem to be wondering about this stuff, suggest you go and have a look see ...

Also curious, may i ask where your friend is from ?
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this is a very good suggestion. i will likely do this sometime in the near future.

but before that, I am meeting with another friend who has made his living as a "Tibetologist" for most of his adult life (who assures me that "this subject is a complex and difficult one with not two, but many sides to the coin") -- eager to see what information he brings.

my friend who visited 2 years ago is from ShangHai. she leans toward Bjork on this issue like most people.
 
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